5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

Villian just sat down 2 orbits ago. Hasn't done anything stupid or shocking yet.

I think everything is standard up until the river. I don't think anyone would advocate a turn fold against an unknown.

Is the river a check/call? bet/fold? bet/call?

Party Poker 5.00/10.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.00 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

Final Pot: 11.50 BB.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

I think I fold the turn, as you are behind too often, and have only 2 outs. Given that you called the turn, I would check call the river. At this point the pot is big enough, and he MIGHT have something like a busted nut flush draw. So induce a bluff from this agro villain.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

I was wrong about him being one of the known TAGs. I just reviewed the hand because you said "aggro oppoenent", so I went to check his stats. He's totally unknown. I got 24 hands on him total. However, in the few orbits he played so far, he didn't come off as loose passive. Wasn't playing a ton of hands and was usually raising.

Does that change your answer at all?

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

A lot of people give me flak for talking about default plays, because everything's situational. But you have to make a fair number (2-3) of decisions against unknown players even if you're looking for stats, and even after that point you're modifying some 'average' decision by the results you're seeing. Rarely do you instantly change your play to 'this guy's a scary LA-A/TP-P' in the first hundred hands, unless of course they're proving the former.

In any case, the 'default' play against someone who hasn't shown themselves to be completely stupid is to fold the turn.

You're getting 9:2 on a calldown here, and unless you can say for sure that he'd do this with both straight and flush draws as well as a bare 7, you really can't call this. Even then, I don't think you're getting the sort of odds you need when his most likely holdings are a T or a Q.

Yes, a lot of players would make this play against a PFR with practically nothing, but you can peg them and play from there. I wouldn't say the average opponent would do this with nothing more than rarely, especially readless. I'd say you're up against a T, Q, or overpair to TT more than 3/4

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was wrong about him being one of the known TAGs. I just reviewed the hand because you said "aggro oppoenent", so I went to check his stats. He's totally unknown. I got 24 hands on him total. However, in the few orbits he played so far, he didn't come off as loose passive. Wasn't playing a ton of hands and was usually raising.

Does that change your answer at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this makes it even more imperative to fold the turn. If he was really agro, you might make a case for calling it, but even then it would be marginal.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

[ QUOTE ]

In any case, the 'default' play against someone who hasn't shown themselves to be completely stupid is to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

Good post.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

Rainbow flop. CO raised preflop. He calls the flop. Decent pot. Why not just check-call the turn? You never get raised off the best hand and you give yourself a chance to hit your 8 if he's ahead. I would also check-call the river against an unknown. Getting to showdown cheaply OOP with OK hands is key in shorthanded games. This is an OK hand.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rainbow flop. CO raised preflop. He calls the flop. Decent pot. Why not just check-call the turn? You never get raised off the best hand and you give yourself a chance to hit your 8 if he's ahead. I would also check-call the river against an unknown. Getting to showdown cheaply OOP with OK hands is key in shorthanded games. This is an OK hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Somewhat simple concept, but I like how you put it.

I think there are sometimes when I lose sight of this concept. I'll keep it in the back of my mind today.

Now, change that avatar.

Re: 5/10: Turn and River play with 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just check-call the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are ahead way more then you are behind. Big PP would reraise. There is only 2 queens left. He peels one on the flop which is very normal for a lot of players. Your hand is very vulnerable to any overcards falling. I think giving up a free card is a mistake.

My goal here is winning the pot on the turn when I am ahead, which is most of the time.

BTW I am calling this one down against an unknown and check calling the river.
Hands that will raise the turn from a player with med agg. KJ A7 flush draw 66. Not to mention a total bluff or some other idiot semi bluff.