Two Plus Two Older Archives - Getting desperate for help

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- - Getting desperate for help (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=223945)

very well stated lestat. And I appreciate the confidence you have in all of us.

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Hogger-

It is the *appearance* of possible collusion that you deem unethical, and I have to agree that you have a point. In a live game, I wouldn't want someone I'm in a hand against to start receiving whispers from the guy sitting next to him. If he's talking about the weather, then he can do it loud enough for everyone to hear. Most card rooms have a rule, "one player to a hand" and it can be enforced. So in this respect, I agree with you.

FWIW- I think you're making too large of an issue out of it here though. There is nothing you or I can do about online collusion. It can and does occur. I have written it off as a cost of doing business in the way that a company would write off bad accounts. If two people want to IM or even talk on the phone, you cannot prevent them. The question is, what is it costing you?

I also believe it might occur less than you think. I for one, believe bike when he says he doesn't collude even though he has every opportunity to do so. I was once in an online game with a good friend of mine who I play live with all the time. We talked about the game and the players, and how they play, but not once did either of us think to collude even though it would've been very easy to do! It was like an unwritten rule that both of us were above that. I didn't help him and he didn't help me. I'm happy to say that the subject was never even brought up. I played my hands and he played his. Once (I was out of the hand), he made a flush and got raised on the river. He was thinking out loud on the phone, "Can this guy have the ace?". I mucked the ace of the suit and didn't tell him until after the hand. I wondered if he'd get mad, but he didn't say a thing.

This is a very long winded way of saying that while people are sure to collude, there are also many many other players capable of IMing each other while maintaining the integrity of the game. I've always said that most people who would cheat aren't very good anyway.

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Yes I was making it out to be more of issue then it is just to make a point. And of coarse there is cheating which is a cost of bussiness. I know bike is not cheating b/c of the obvious fact that he can play and hangs out here!
I was just helping hijack the thread b/c I don't like the way the indusrty is going. Wireless and no IP,s.
I know of a group that plays together all the time at each others houses and I wish they were able to red flag these guys that don't have the same IP everyday.
I have been online since it's inception and I think security is way worse now then it was then and this really bothers me. All these security measures they talk about are nothing but talk, there getting tons of rake and could careless for the most part.
Anyways, I just didn't like that they ( 2+2'ers) were promoting 6 guys in the 30-60 on IM together. Ethically it looks very bad for the game.
Anyways this thread suxs and longs as I am getting my piece of the pie I shouldn't complain so much.

Thanks Mike

Re: My $0.02 on the IM/Collusion Digression

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On a more intermediate level cheating I could see two colluders doing the following:

Fish: Has K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and raises UTG
Colluder 1: Has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and calls in MP.
Colluder 2: Has 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in BB and calls.

Flop is 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

On the flop, Fish bets, Colluder 1 raises. Colluder one talks to Colluder 2 on TeamSpeak and tells him/her that he gots a bigger flush draw. Both agree that the Fish very likely has a pocket pair and depending on the pair is a favorite in the hand. Colluder 2 decides to fold...

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The specific example you mention is easy to detect if poker sites look for it. How often does Colluder2 fold a flush draw on a blank, unpaired flop? Probably not often and if he is doing it when Colluder1 is in hands with a better flush draw, now we have a good case that these two players are colluding.