Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

Trying to impress financial analysts with their increasing profit margins is never going to be a good thing for us players.

The squeeze is on.

Enjoy!

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

What do you suppose would be good for you as a player, thinking industry wide?

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

We try only to impress players ... We are not beholden to the fads of the public capital markets and hitting daily or monthly net income figures.

We make money, yes. We would like to make more, through provision of online poker services. That is our underlying business, not marketing or selling shares to public investors.

Truepoker CEO

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

I thought you S.E. only liked to play at the really obscure small rooms anyway?

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

Some candy.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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We try only to impress players ... We are not beholden to the fads of the public capital markets and hitting daily or monthly net income figures.

We make money, yes. We would like to make more, through provision of online poker services. That is our underlying business, not marketing or selling shares to public investors.

Truepoker CEO

[/ QUOTE ] your really impressed us with the rake increase [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

If you want to impress players, speed up the software. We get more hands per hour, you get more rake per hour. Win/win situation there.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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We try only to impress players ... We are not beholden to the fads of the public capital markets and hitting daily or monthly net income figures.

We make money, yes. We would like to make more, through provision of online poker services. That is our underlying business, not marketing or selling shares to public investors.

Truepoker CEO

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Mr. Truepoker CEO,

Thanks for posting on this forum. You are a humorous guy and it is nice to listen to your thoughts. That being said your rake structure is one of the worst out there (for the player).

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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Mr. Truepoker CEO,
You are a humorous guy

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Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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I thought you S.E. only liked to play at the really obscure small rooms anyway?

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Not only.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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What do you suppose would be good for you as a player, thinking industry wide?

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What would be good for all players is for sites not to have the mindset they can raise and tweak rakes on a quarterly basis to increase net revenue. They should be thinking more in terms of increasing volume of players. But they aren't it seems. Rake increases are more the norm now than the exception.

Rake increases could one day make it unfeasible for me to continue playing. So yes I'm worried about this trend we are seeing.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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What do you suppose would be good for you as a player, thinking industry wide?

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What would be good for all players is for sites not to have the mindset they can raise and tweak rakes on a quarterly basis to increase net revenue. They should be thinking more in terms of increasing volume of players. But they aren't it seems. Rake increases are more the norm now than the exception.

Rake increases could one day make it unfeasible for me to continue playing. So yes I'm worried about this trend we are seeing.

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Card rooms provide a service. Bigger cardrooms provide a better service and are able to charge more for it. This is really basic economics.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

It's a pretty open and competitive market. The cost of entry isn't that big and there are a lot of sportsbook/betting companies with plenty of money interested in getting into it; it's the getting of 2000+ players online at the same time to make a site viable that is trickier, unless you use an existng network.

The reason that sites get away with rake increases is that Joe Average player just doesn't notice them - they are a stealth charge. I think that's why historically the sites don't offer rakeback very openly but use cash bonuses instead (so as not to draw attention to the rake). The logical thing for sites to do is some sort of automatic sliding scale rakeback deal- the more rake generated the higher % goes back to the player - to encourage the higher stake and regular players - but that just doesn't sell as well as 'we'll give you $100'.

Actually Party has one aim now which is to maintain/increase its share price. The spat with Empire/Eurobet damaged it even if it does increase revenue.

The abolition of bonuses is really going to hurt the Party player numbers too - very soon PokerStars will be the No. 1 room by player numbers. I think Party are dropping the ball to be honest..I see their scheme - force out the skins and then they can abolish bonuses and offer 2c/hand at best to those who ask, thus massively increasing their profit/player, but I think they understimate the mobility of the player base..

UB's reputation has been badly damaged by its actions in the PokerShare debacle (and it's not that big a room anyway these days).

The genuine networks, like Prima and Crypto, aren't set up so that there is one big player who can lean on the others if they are getting too 'generous' with the player base - and as more rooms join up to them you would expect to see increased competition for the player base...

I'm not sure 'corporate greed' is working out that well for those that are enagaging in it..

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

What will be really intersting to see is the reaction of players if OnLine rooms were to increase the rake on STT's and MTT's - at the moment it is pretty obvious to ALL players what Rake is being taken - IF they could get away with rising the tournament/STT fee with no noticeable affect then the companies will have carte blanche to do what the hell they like

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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[ QUOTE ]
We try only to impress players ... We are not beholden to the fads of the public capital markets and hitting daily or monthly net income figures.

We make money, yes. We would like to make more, through provision of online poker services. That is our underlying business, not marketing or selling shares to public investors.

Truepoker CEO

[/ QUOTE ] your really impressed us with the rake increase [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Adding decimals to the system for small blinds and what not was always claimed as too much work for the programmers. However, at the opportunity to increase rake they found a way.

rJ

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

I rememeber when Paradise was No. 1 - Party are overestimating their advantage - the only reason so many folks played there was the generous bonuses - with them gone we'll see what happens to their numbers..if the numbers drop the hardcore players will follow the fish..if PS started some sort of sliding rakeback for regular players they could take over Party as No.1 in a few weeks IMHO..

If Party ever loses No 1 spot their share price will crash and they will have to use all that capital they are sitting on to 'buy back' the players with (guess what) tempting new bonuses..

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

There are sites out there offering great deals to players right now. Party, Truepoker, and UltimateBet just aren't them.

Take your business elsewhere and you will be happy [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

"... is for sites not to have the mindset they can raise and tweak rakes on a quarterly basis to increase net revenue..."

You suggest removing the capitalism from business. That is childish in it's simplicity and also impossible.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

"...the companies will have carte blanche to do what the hell they like..."

This is typical lefty pap.

YOU allow a company to do something! YOU buy their gasoline at $3 a gallon! YOU pay $3 a hand rake! No company can survive by screwing all it's customers (Unregulated monopolies like utilities excepted).

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

"Unregulated monopolies like utilities excepted?" In the US? They're heavily (and illogically) regulated, government guaranteed monopolies actually. In fact, monopolies are pretty much a myth, except for those created by government. Microsoft? Not without competition, and they'll lose out eventually. Remember the government's antitrust case against IBM? Settled after IBM was no longer a monopoly... due to natural competition. Monopolies are fleeting in capitalism. The only ones that last are the ones created by government.

And what's this about Party eliminating bonuses? I never heard that. I think my affiliate link still gives 20%.

And Party lost value because of their growth warning, not because of anything to do with Empire.

And Empire's the best-run company in the business. Declining share price doesn't change that. Stop complaining about the share price. Do you hold it? I hope they stay independent, or are a buyer (e.g. Playtech), because in the long run the best management will produce the most valuable company. I'd hate to see Empire's talent working for the people at Party... unless Party has the sense to put the Empire people in charge of marketing... or everything.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

""Unregulated monopolies like utilities excepted?" In the US? They're heavily (and illogically) regulated,"

I think it would be difficult to argue that an unregulated monopoly would never screw it's customers.

Please continue on the illogic of utility regulation. I'm interested in hearing a case for total deregulation.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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""Unregulated monopolies like utilities excepted?" In the US? They're heavily (and illogically) regulated,"

I think it would be difficult to argue that an unregulated monopoly would never screw it's customers.

Please continue on the illogic of utility regulation. I'm interested in hearing a case for total deregulation.

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It's actually really easy since unregulated monopolies don't exist long enough to do it. They will try to screw the customer as fast as they can and then they won't be a monopoly anymore. Someone else will move in. Even if they don't screw their customers someone will probably move in. 100 years ago there weren't enough large sources of capital for this to happen, but it's a virtual certainty now. The only thing that prevents it is regulation.

Regulation does not serve the consumer in the long run though it may reduce short term variance at the expense of overall expectation. A totally free market will always balance itself. SE's complaining is part of this free market process. The Internet is a beautiful thing partially because it is so easy for new businesses to enter the market. If the sites move their rake too high then people will leave and new sites will take over. If the companies go out of business with the lower rake then the higher rake will stay and we'll have to get used to it. Some marginal winners will stop playing, shrinking the market and only the better run sites will remain. Someone will have a better idea of how to do something and they'll take over while someone else fades away. That's capitalism.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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You suggest removing the capitalism from business. That is childish in it's simplicity and also impossible.

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If you would comprehend others comments, maybe you would understand their argument a little better before you comment.

I said I hoped the bigger sites would go the route of continuing to grow their player base, creating larger volume so rake increases were not needed.

Instead, they want to increase player base AND increase rakes at the same time. To me, this is not the way to go. If less players make a profit, then the sites will have less players. If they increase rake and it pushes marginal people out of the site, the site loses in the end.

I state that raising rakes will backfire on these sites as their player base erodes as people leave when they become net losers instead of net winners.

By seeking immediate returns on a quarterly basis to impress Wall St for short term positive affirmation, the sites are eroding the building blocks in regards to a stable player base into the future.

If players one day realize the only ones making money from online poker is online poker sites, then online poker will die a fast death. So limits on rake are indeed needed at some point. Even you have to admit that. Unless this whole thing is to become nothing but a goldrush that shrivels up and fades away in 7 years.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

Yes, yes, we're in agreement here but...Explain how my electric utitity faces any chance in the coming 20 years of facing competetive pressure? I don't see it.

Now cable TV, I understand. When my basic bill reached $25 in 1999 I pulled the plug and never watched the thing again. They now face some competetion but the price is not falling. Yet.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

"By seeking immediate returns on a quarterly basis to impress Wall St for short term positive affirmation, the sites are eroding the building blocks in regards to a stable player base into the future."

Sounds like you've isolated a niche. Raise some capital and compete. Yor're a poker player, right? What do you figure the odds are that your business model is better than the one Party is using, Party being a (multi?) $Billion business?

Sorry about the previous post but you sounded like a whiney lefty, my least favorite life form.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

How long will it be before one of the sites breaks from the norm and lowers rake to 3% with a max of 2$ in an attempt to gain business? This will happen sooner or later and if it works (I think it will) it eventually will make the other sites respond.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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It's actually really easy since unregulated monopolies don't exist long enough to do it.

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In most cases you are correct, but the conspiracy nutter has a point when he specifically mentioned utilities.

There are natural monopolies, after all. They are not as common as the average European socialist politician would like to think they are, but they are there nevertheless.

Obviously, online poker sites are not one of them.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

Ho is Empire best run company? They have no software and no support, just a dozen of marketers who used to market almost exclusively to Party players.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

Pokerstars is experimenting with a 20% MTT payout structure... if they make these permanant, while not a rake reduction, this will increase the expected life of the average MTT player.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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What do you suppose would be good for you as a player, thinking industry wide?

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Hopefully respectable countries (like the US, GB etc..) not only legalizing online poker but forbidding all the banana republic sites, which would liberate us from all the scums that drive those sites and would not allow them anymore to do whatever dirty trick they wish without fearing punishment.

And Yes, TP CEO, you are indeed a funny guy.
You have nerve as well with the rake your site takes...

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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Adding decimals to the system for small blinds and what not was always claimed as too much work for the programmers.
rJ

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About 10 minutes of work for the programmer.

Re: Corporate Greed Changing Face of Online Poker Forever
 

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Adding decimals to the system for small blinds and what not was always claimed as too much work for the programmers.
rJ

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About 10 minutes of work for the programmer.

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Do you know anything about programming large scale applications that manipulate money 24 hours a day 365 days a year?