Two flopped sets.
 

These two hands happened in close succession on two different tables. No good reads in either case. Comments on any aspects of the hands are appreciated.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($146.7)
UTG ($82)
Hero ($100)
UTG+2 ($139)
MP1 ($95)
MP2 ($4.3)
MP3 ($62.65)
CO ($132)
Button ($136.1)
SB ($101.2)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, Button calls $2, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($8) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, Button calls $7, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($22) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

That's just about the worst card that could possibly come. At this point I put him on a made draw, and am mostly hoping to fill up on the river.

River: ($42) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $20</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $62

I suspect that this was a weak fold, but his bets looked for all the world like a made flush trying to keep top pair interested. Then again, I might have the best hand better than one time in four in this situation. What say you?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 2$ BB (10 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($99.25)
UTG ($198)
UTG+1 ($95)
UTG+2 ($251.45)
MP1 ($109.9)
Hero ($151.85)
MP3 ($341.65)
CO ($106.1)
Button ($111.3)
SB ($98)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls $2, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises to $6</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls $4, UTG+2 calls $4, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($25) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

I checked hoping the preflop raiser would bet and middle the field for me, but no luck.

Turn: ($25) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets $12</font>, BB calls $12, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $40</font>, MP3 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $89

The Ace is a lovely card for me, since I have to figure the preflop raiser has now hit his hand. This time I succeeded in middling the field, but was that the right move given what I figured MP3 to have? In other words, if he has AK (as he claimed before he folded) and I throw a small-ish bet into him (say, $10-$15), he probably raises. This knocks out the field, but commits him to the hand for, probably, a much larger chunk of his stack.

So: Bet into the raiser, check and raise, or check and call?

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

On the first hand, you never really contested his bet on the turn. Why didn't you bet, what made you think he had the flush/stright? I would have bet out on the turn, but a check/raise would do the same job. You needed to find out where you stand! If you bet the turn, and he raises, suspect the worst, untill then, take charge and make him pay.

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

why no preflop raise in hand 1?

bet more on the flop.

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the first hand . . . what made you think he had the flush/stright?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he smooth-called my flop bet, then the turn card completed roughly half a million draws. His subsequent bets looked like a straight or flush that knew I was scared by the board. He might not have it, of course, but don't you put him on a flush or straight?

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet out on the turn, but a check/raise would do the same job. You needed to find out where you stand!

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like a check-raise here at all, but betting out on the turn is probably the right line.

[ QUOTE ]
why no preflop raise in hand 1?

bet more on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising w/ JJ out of position at a full table.

The pot was $7.60 after the rake, and slightly underbetting the pot is my standard bet. The flop was draw-heavy, but not quite heavy enough for me to want to overbet.

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like raising w/ JJ out of position at a full table.

[/ QUOTE ]

forgive a lowly journeyman for saying so, but do you like making money?

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

Yeah, making money is ok.

This really isn't an outlandish stance on JJ. Unless I make a set, JJ is never going to be that strong of a hand, and it'll be very tough to play out of position, particularly in a big (i.e. raised) pot.

It's a lot easier to play in position, so I'll raise with it from around back and/or behind limpers. UTG and UTG+1, however, I'll just limp and hope to win a (relatively) small pot instead of losing a big one.

(This assumes a full table, of course. At a 6-max, you raise from any position.)

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

I don't think it's too tough.. you either flop the overpair or the set and start putting chips in or you don't and you can check/fold.

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

hand 1: i call on the end for sure. his range of hands is pretty wide.

hand 2: id bet on both streets. youll get much more action out of this hand by betting and either getting called or raised, then by check raising. check raising of course has the added advantage of picking up a bluff, but that is useless in this situation. all signs point to betting. on the flop my reasons for betting would also include the possibility that i get raised by the pf raiser if he has AA-QQ and i bet. im looking to play as big a pot as possible, so im more concerned about getting the pfr's whole stack then allowing him to bluff once. check raising allows him to fold some hands he otherwies wouldnt. not to mention the the possibility that he checks behind the flop.

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

Not that simple.

In the first place, there are lots of situations where you won't flop an overpair but, having raised preflop, will have too much of a chance to win it on the flop just to check and fold.

It's also not so easy to play as an overpair because, unlike AA, KK, and (to a lesser extent) QQ, you're likely to see an overcard on the turn/river if it goes that far, and then you have no idea where you are, and you have to act first again.

Besides, if you have an overpair on the flop or beyond, all you've got is one pair. If you raise PF, then bet roughly the pot on a 9-high flop and are raised, where does that leave you (assuming the stacks are deep enough for there to be action all the way to the river, and assuming your opponent isn't a maniac)?

Re: Two flopped sets.
 

That makes sense, BK. Thanks.