Re: QQ ugh.
 

Raise the turn for a free showdown against the average opponent. The way you played it, the river is fine.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: QQ ugh.
 

I'd just call down.
What does raising for a free showdown acheive? You might get 3-bet, ok easy fold then. If they guy is semi-bluffing he is calling and donking the river if he hits it. You also stop him from bluffing with air.

Re: QQ ugh.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just call down.
What does raising for a free showdown acheive? You might get 3-bet, ok easy fold then. If they guy is semi-bluffing he is calling and donking the river if he hits it. You also stop him from bluffing with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the right place for a free showdown against the average opponent. Unless he has a hand that beats ours he will rarely donk the river or 3-bet the turn, the average opponent does not do these things... its too aggressive. He will however fold a bluff, some might even fold a draw, but few will fold a pair. If you don't 3-bet chances are you will have to call a river bet anyway, so you are giving yourself the chance to win the hand or at least see the showdown for the same investment.

I'd like to add the caveat that this is a smallish pot, which does make me hesitate the extra investment, also its also an easy fold if a 3-bet comes.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: QQ ugh.
 

What hands do you expect an average opponent to fold to a turn raise here?

Re: QQ ugh.
 

I would fold the turn, that seems awfully weak considering the response. But why are we expecting him to bluff so often on this decently scary board against a preflop raiser?

Re: QQ ugh.
 

I really hate the idea of raising the turn here. The only hands that we will ever fold are bluffs, which we would want to keep betting on the river anyways. If we raise we put in 2 bets when behind and only win 1 when ahead.. If we call the turn and wiver we lose 2 when behind and win 2 when ahead, and also don't open ourselves up to a river bluff-donk

Re: QQ ugh.
 

Why are the calling the turn, but folding the river? What are you trying to catch? Either fold the turn or plan to call down. Call then fold makes no sense.

Re: QQ ugh.
 

This is an easy call down against an aggressive player. Against an unknown I'm not sure. I think jaxup makes a good argument for not raising the turn.

For those recommending raising the turn, if our raise is just called, are we value betting the river on a non-spade ( & ?non-five)?

Seems calling down here is not a big mistake (if one at all).

Re: QQ ugh.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the turn for a free showdown against the average opponent. The way you played it, the river is fine.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bad TT. Call the turn. Call the river.

Edit: FWIW, this is the only river I even consider folding. A fold isn't THAT bad.

Re: QQ ugh.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the turn, that seems awfully weak considering the response. But why are we expecting him to bluff so often on this decently scary board against a preflop raiser?

[/ QUOTE ]

We are expecting him to donk semi-bluff and donk 5's and PPs. This is fine. Let him continue to do so.