88 and AQ, tough spots
 

both at 3/6 6-max on ub, no one playing particularly wild or anything, no pt up:

First hand: MP raises, button cold calls, I call in sb with 88. bb calls too.

flop: 5 5 2 rainbow
checked to mp who bets. button calls, i call, bb drops.

turn: 7, putting two to a suit.
checked again to mp who bets. button drops, I raise, mp 3-bets. is this a standard call down, or should i let go?
----

second hand: I raise AQs in the sb after a couple MP limpers, 4 to the flop.

flop is As Ts 8c
I bet. BB folds, limpers call.

turn: Kh
I bet, both limpers call again.

river: 6c
I bet. First limper folds, second one raises...anyone fold this getting some 11-1 odds?

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

I showdown both of these hands expecting to lose over 50% of the time.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
both at 3/6 6-max on ub, no one playing particularly wild or anything, no pt up:

First hand: MP raises, button cold calls, I call in sb with 88. bb calls too.

flop: 5 5 2 rainbow
checked to mp who bets. button calls, i call, bb drops.

turn: 7, putting two to a suit.
checked again to mp who bets. button drops, I raise, mp 3-bets. is this a standard call down, or should i let go?


[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm...this hand looks verrrrrry familiar. So....what was your read on MP? <Ahem>

I'd tend to call it down without one, especially with the flush draw out there.

But are you sure the turn card put two to a suit on board? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]

second hand: I raise AQs in the sb after a couple MP limpers, 4 to the flop.

flop is As Ts 8c
I bet. BB folds, limpers call.

turn: Kh
I bet, both limpers call again.

river: 6c
I bet. First limper folds, second one raises...anyone fold this getting some 11-1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm definitely not folding this.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

I think the first one is a fold against a standard opponent. I might call down against an unknown that I'm suspicious of.

I always try to convince myself that calling in spots like the second one is wrong, but I think you gotta getting 11-1. He could be pulling a move with a busted flush, since I think he'd raise the straight on the turn, and if he's got A6 he's got stones.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

heh sry no strong reads, wasn't paying close enough attention.
actually im not sure the turn put two to a suit up. i'm still having trouble importing ub hand histories so i didn't recheck. I'll take your word for it though that the board was rainbow.
Against a sane opponent, I think I should be folding the turn, I can't think of a single hand I'm beating after the turn 3-bet except maybe A7.

Second hand I think I agree is a call, especially with the third guy folding.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
heh sry no strong reads, wasn't paying close enough attention.
actually im not sure the turn put two to a suit up. i'm still having trouble importing ub hand histories so i didn't recheck. I'll take your word for it though that the board was rainbow. Against a sane opponent, I think I should be folding the turn, I can't think of a single hand I'm beating after the turn 3-bet except maybe A7.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, it was a rainbow turn card:

Ultimate Bet 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.


Also, I was opening from the CO (effectively) which widens the range a bit. I think you're right that the only hand a reasonable opponent has which you're beating here is A7. But if you didn't know that I was reasonable, I think calling down is OK. A lot of people overplay overcards or smaller pocket pairs here.

But as I think about the hand more, you should probably be raising on the flop (and maybe even 3-betting preflop). If I do have unimproved overs on the flop you want me folding on the turn.


From my point of view, I didn't have much of a read on you either -- and I thought I was paying attention! (I guess the tight players can be the hardest to pick up reads on.) I do remember strongly considering the idea of smooth-calling the flop and raising the river -- I'm not sure if that would've been better or not...

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

It's funny/interesting that you guys were playing at the same table. Does this happen a lot on the forums?

I would think that it would be pretty hard for your "villain" to put you on trip 5's, but the 3-bet would indicate that is most likely stronger than a pair of 7s...esp. given that the board is not two flush (I suppose you could be 3-betting a OESD, but much less likely).

3 betting would be good if you think that villian will call down or raise with a worse hand; definitely better than trying to c/r the river which could get checked through. And you lose a bet if you stop and go, which obviously seems stupid to do.

So, yeah, I think 3-betting is probably best here. But, hell, now that I saw the hard in it's full glory I could be results oriented. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

Hand 1: I would say that a c/r is better on the flop here, but you're not folding either villain with it, and there are a lot more cards that hurt you on the turn than help you. I think calling is good, even though we're likely ahead. on the turn, you hit one of those few cards that doesn't hurt your hand, and I think a c/r was definitely the right move here.

The 3-bet definitely makes me think overpair, but I probably call down here. I'm not saying you should call down, I'm just saying that with an overpair to the board, that's what I would have done.

Hand 2: Call the river. You'll be good 1 time in 10, even if it doesn't seem like it.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny/interesting that you guys were playing at the same table. Does this happen a lot on the forums?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it happens too much, but I'm sure it's happened before -- it's the first time it's happened to me, anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
3 betting would be good if you think that villian will call down or raise with a worse hand; definitely better than trying to c/r the river which could get checked through. And you lose a bet if you stop and go, which obviously seems stupid to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have position here so I don't have to worry about the river getting checked through. I guess the breakdown of arguments (on my side) is something like:

(a) If my 3-bet forces Villain (Storky) to go in to calldown mode, then it doesn't matter what I do. Though if the river is a 7, I think I'll be happy I got the bets in on the turn.
(b) If my 3-bet causes an aggressive Villain to cap I'm happy since my hand is only behind a full house and it's more likely that he has top pair or a pocket pair.
(c) If my 3-bet causes a wily Villain to fold (say, a pair of 8's) then I'm sad. I might have made more by calling and raising the river.

So I weighed those options and went with 3-betting. I'm still not sure it was right, but it seems better the more I look at it.

Re: 88 and AQ, tough spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
But as I think about the hand more, you should probably be raising on the flop (and maybe even 3-betting preflop). If I do have unimproved overs on the flop you want me folding on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think 88 has enough equity to warrant a 3-bet against 2-3 opponents from the sb. On the flop, I like calling for the reasons Kentock stated. The pot is too big for a raise to drive out the hands I want out(all of them), and many turn cards could crush me.

I'm still not sure about my call down after your 3-bet, I guess it's just one of those sucky spots in holdem that are hard to play well. I was sure I was beat, in which case I was drawing to 2 outs, but with 10.5BB I couldn't make the fold. Examining the hand now I really should've folded, since my effective odds were much worse (5.75-1) and there isn't really anything I'm ahead of here.

I think you were right to 3-bet the turn as opposed to wait for the river. The only way I'm putting in more than the 2 bets I give you when you 3-bet then bet river is if I fill up. Of course that assumes you know I have an overpair, which you didn't know for sure but makes the most sense for me to have.