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-   -   A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time. (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=380943)

Ribbo 11-18-2005 11:41 AM

A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...mp;hand=170789

I want you all to name (remembering to use the EV odds calculator on the page) all the mistakes made by all the players on this hand, because there were some huge ones to say the least. I don't believe I've had such a big edge on the flop before as this 4 handed, to end up with nothing, despite even on the turn having a bigger equity than the two guys who thought they just "hit". Hehe, it's wasn't even like I slow played it on the flop though. I'm more than happy to have people say I played it badly on the turn (even though you're wrong!), but you need to back up your statements rather than just saying "cuz u sux".

hachkc 11-18-2005 12:03 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
Undoubtedly, the biggest mistake was the limp in MP with AA23; that basically changed the entire hand. If he pots it, A365 may make a weak call or fold on the button, K653 probably folds and you may fold OOP unless its heads up.

After the flop hits, everyone has caught just enough of the flop to probably hang around even for a pot sized bet. Obviously, I don't know the players so this may be wrong or right.

As for the turn, I would say your All-in call is kind of weak as you are only playing for 1/2 the pot at this point unless you are expecting the other 2 to drop. I assume you didn't want to see 2 more callers. With 4 callers, I'd guess you figued you were beat and needed a river card for anything. Based on the hands, I can't see anyone getting away from this point at this point. Its just one of those odds times where everyone hit something in their hand that they won't get away from.

Feel free to critique.

Ribbo 11-18-2005 12:16 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
[ QUOTE ]

After the flop hits, everyone has caught just enough of the flop to probably hang around even for a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, no, no. This is the biggest error right here and one I was hoping to point out. It is players terrible recognition post flop of what a good or bad flop is for them that makes losers what they are. The guy with 356 has 4% equity on the flop. The guy with A356, has 8%. You should never chase a straight on a flop where there is likely both a better low draw out and a flush draw (plus you have no pair anyway for high!). Straights are for suckers!
On the turn, I still have 25% equity 4 handed, so with the money already in the pot, I only need 20% to make it a good call. Even if one guy folds, my equity stays the same and at the bare minimum for a correct call should I be beaten for both high and low. If i'm not beaten then it's much higher, but it's really difficult to go under 25%, would require someone to have a higher set and a better low.
Yet again I reinforce that A356 on a 47x flop with 2 to a flush out in a loose game where nobody folds, is junk. You have nothing more than a gutshot for a low half of the pot, and you have to dodge an insane amount of bullets to make your straight and have it good on the river. That's why he was 8% on the flop to win.

Mendacious 11-18-2005 01:10 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
Your equity goes way down if someone had KK, which is not an unreasonable holding with that many players in. I think you need to adjust your analysis for this possibility. Which would leave you with only 10 outs to half the pot. Depending on what you think the odds are someone holds KK, this will determine whether your play is a -EV or +EV play on the turn. The way I see it you need approximately 17 outs to make your call. If you think there is a greater than 20% chance that someone has KK, than your play was -EV.


Of course I would not have automatically assumed at that point that someone had the straight, maybe 75% or more sure that someone had it. So its that makes it pretty close to an even money expectation for you to have if you call.

11-18-2005 03:06 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
A775? I don't think I would've played it under the gun, even with the ace being suited. Other than that I probably would've played it the same way.

11-18-2005 03:32 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
A775? I don't think I would've played it under the gun, even with the ace being suited. Other than that I probably would've played it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

jthegreat 11-18-2005 04:07 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
Ribbo likes to post hands where he makes questionable plays. I think this is an attempt to get all of us to play worse, therefore (in theory) making him more money.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Ribbo 11-18-2005 08:48 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
Two points, 1: position is irrelevant in games where everyone shoves. A577 utg is just the same as A577 on the button. 2: If you want to be a profitable player you have to play very loose preflop for 1 bet and recognise every flop where you have a good draw and fold the rest. Why would I ever want to fold A577 preflop for 1 bet when I can put $200 more in post flop 4 handed against people with 4% equity on the flop? The reason I win is I'm better post flop than other players. You however aren't, so yeah you shouldn't play it post flop.

11-18-2005 10:23 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
I'll point out what I see was wrong then I'll note that overall I'm a loser at PLO (due to one heck of a streak at getting unlucky in big pots--If I get beat in another one by another crazy runner runner or gutshot straight by someone only drawing to that when I've got the nuts plus good redraws I'll officially go nuts) *I will also note I'm a good winner at the rest of the games I play (7 stud, Omaha H/L and holdem)* (It doesn't make sense to me to be a winner in H/L and not in omaha without a freakishly bad run of luck?)

Anyway, here we go
Mistake 1--AA23 guy didn't raise preflop
Mistake 2--AA23 guy calling a bet and a raise with only the nut low draw and a backdoor flush draw (when it's more than possible he'll get quartered) [and it's obvious AA is beat]
Mistakes 3&4--two guys calling with a wrap when a good portion of those outs make a flush--also not realizing someone else probably has similar cards killing even more outs and potentially making another quartered pot because any straight card that hits ALSO MAKES A LOW FOR SOMEONE ELSE!
Mistake 5--CP calling two allins with only an A2--I would have been the heck out of here on the flop because a lot of people chase that nut low. Too easy for him to be quartered.
Mistake 6--fourth guy calling an allin when it's pretty freaking obvious at least one (if not more) person has the same nut straight and he has no redraws.
Mistake 7 (this is out of order) K356 guy bets with only top pair and a draw with a bunch of guys acting behind him who probably have that beat.

That turn really killed you but with the $ in and entering the pot you have to call there. Way too much equity with a set and a nut flush draw. If only the jack came first...

Although equity does go way down if someone has KK... KK usually doesn't smooth call on the flop there.

I'm sure I didn't see enough mistakes though. (I'm not counting preflop calls though)

11-18-2005 10:34 PM

Re: A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.
 
Ribbo, I used to respect you after following your posts in your own forum. At times, you supply great advice for all of us who aspire to be better than average at this game (OH8). But your arrogant replies to any critique that comes your way makes me lose most of the respect I ever had for you as a person. You might be a good, even great OH8 player, but in my opinion you are a weak discussion partner.

As for the hand in question, I would absolutely have made the call preflop (as I am a decidedly loose player preflop but an IMHO above average player postflop). The flop was great for at least half the pot and I think your raise was correct. But in a loose game, as you have stated this was a case of, I also think a 356 straight draw call was valid. K356 less so than A356 of course, as it has no chance of catching the nut low. As Mendacious pointed out before, someone might hold kk (and even a2kk), but your raise is still more than defendable. Come turn card, I think your shove was a case of disappointment-tilt; a combination of wanting to represent nut high and low, and of wanting to isolate a nut low/no high to heads up action in order to catch the deuce that could bust him. But even these things considered, it's not a terrible play, because come river card you might have one or more players quartered or worse. Considering the AA23 call on flop: would you have folded in a loose game? End note: my condoleances to a bad beat.

Good luck


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