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-   -   Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=353736)

w_alloy 10-09-2005 06:13 AM

Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
There are only two ways you can argue that animals' suffering and dying is bad. The first is a utility based argument, of which there are many that I have grouped here under one catagory. These include maintaining ecosystems, teaching children respect, and many many others. I have no problems with these arguments. However, I think a large amount of activities labled immoral or illegal do not fall under this catagory, but under the second.

The second argument is made solely on an ideological and religious basis. People think it is generally bad for anything to suffer, and bad for anything to die. But why? I feel that those of you who are not religious, and view the world objectively and with an open mind (as I strive to do) need to defend your postion on this if it is anything other than "It matters not at all, except by the effect it has." However, I stronly suspect that a large portion of agnostic and athieistic readers of this board maintain that it is immoral to torture a rat, or an unwanted mut, or to mass slaughter cows. Why?

There are a few things that I need to note about this. I understand that I am tacitly questioning the basis of all morals. My answer to this ethical question is that of many evolutionary psychologists; morals exist, and in a larger sense all norms and values, becuase they help society in so many ways (we could spend a lot of time on this but I do not wish to). This is the view of morality that I have found the majority of smart non-religious people hold. You have to be very creative to support the normative value implied in this subject line through this view on moralty. I follow these moral guidlinese for pragmatic reasons, including personal ones (that they are ingrained into me). This is the same reason I would never torture a rabbit, or even kill one except under the most extreme cirumstances (it would cause me extreme emoitional discomfort). However, I think there is a big difference between feeling that killing bunnies with butterknives is wrong, as I strongly do, and thinking this behaviour is wrong, which I, frankly, don't.

w_alloy 10-09-2005 06:24 AM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
I think there will be a few very similiar and common responses to this thread which need to be addressed hopefully before they happen.

The first is by people who do not understand what I am asking. Do not defend animal rights by stating another similiar moral. For example, do not tell me that animals shouldnt be torured because all life is sacred. I want to know why you think all life is sacred.

Another common response I anticpate is by moral relativists who do or dont know they fall into said catagory. DO NOT defend "animal rights" by saying that whatever is moral is what feels right to you, or that we each have our own morals and only we can say whats wrong or not. I understand you feel this, and thats fine, but your comments are worthless here. If you are a moral relativist, the thing of worth you can contribute is saying why you adopted said moral, and why this is reasonable and not based on feelings (I am not saying it is not reasonable for this to be based on feelings, just posting such is a waste of everyone's time).

bocablkr 10-09-2005 09:56 AM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

sexdrugsmoney 10-09-2005 10:03 AM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why does it matter? If in death there is no memory, and in death there is no existance, therefore whether you once existed, or will exist is one and the same - moot.

benkahuna 10-09-2005 10:08 AM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why does it matter? If in death there is no memory, and in death there is no existance, therefore whether you once existed, or will exist is one and the same - moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an answer to this one, but it seems like you want the other poster to answer so I'll wait for him. I think there's value in life too and am concerned that life could be it.

sexdrugsmoney 10-09-2005 10:10 AM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why does it matter? If in death there is no memory, and in death there is no existance, therefore whether you once existed, or will exist is one and the same - moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an answer to this one, but it seems like you want the other poster to answer so I'll wait for him. I think there's value in life too and am concerned that life could be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to hear what you have to say.

bocablkr 10-09-2005 07:47 PM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why does it matter? If in death there is no memory, and in death there is no existance, therefore whether you once existed, or will exist is one and the same - moot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was out all day - sorry I could not respond sooner. Not sure I understand your question. After death (mine) obviously nothing will matter. But while I am alive it all does. I don't understand how you can't see this. Are you trying to say since we all die and after death nothing matters so why does it matter now? The same reason atheists are more moral than theists. Precisely because there is no second chance - this is our only opportunity to make a difference. We screw up now and that's it. No coming back again and trying to do better. Have to get it right the first and only time here(at least that is how I feel).

w_alloy 10-09-2005 08:25 PM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
[ QUOTE ]

Death is the end of all things - there is nothing after that. There is no soul, no heaven no hell. This is true for all life. Knowing this is all you need to know in order to understand why an animal's death matters. It is the end of its existence for all time and that matters to me (most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

This the same moral relitvists' arguement I had in my add on post. Your post can be boiled down to the last sentance "it matters to me." Good for you, but honestly, I dont care unless you provide a real reason. Why does it matter that a "life" is ending?

w_alloy 10-09-2005 08:27 PM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
[ QUOTE ]


Was out all day - sorry I could not respond sooner. Not sure I understand your question. After death (mine) obviously nothing will matter. But while I am alive it all does. I don't understand how you can't see this. Are you trying to say since we all die and after death nothing matters so why does it matter now? The same reason atheists are more moral than theists. Precisely because there is no second chance - this is our only opportunity to make a difference. We screw up now and that's it. No coming back again and trying to do better. Have to get it right the first and only time here(at least that is how I feel).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are confusing animal and human life. Do you think there is no difference? What about a fish? A musquito? A virus? Or are you just making a confused argument?

bocablkr 10-09-2005 08:44 PM

Re: Animal pain, suffering, and death: why does it matter?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Was out all day - sorry I could not respond sooner. Not sure I understand your question. After death (mine) obviously nothing will matter. But while I am alive it all does. I don't understand how you can't see this. Are you trying to say since we all die and after death nothing matters so why does it matter now? The same reason atheists are more moral than theists. Precisely because there is no second chance - this is our only opportunity to make a difference. We screw up now and that's it. No coming back again and trying to do better. Have to get it right the first and only time here(at least that is how I feel).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are confusing animal and human life. Do you think there is no difference? What about a fish? A musquito? A virus? Or are you just making a confused argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

I value all life - humans ARE animals. I feel terrible just eating a steak (which I admit I do). Point is, since an animal is also only here this one time I fell great sorrow when one is killed. I wished I believed in re-incarnation or heaven for animals.


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