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-   -   Explain this about the random number generators (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=398867)

SNOWBALL138 12-19-2005 08:06 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
Seemingly, having a good attitude is important per the Global Consciousness Project at Princeton. Human minds might have an effect on RNGs.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/display/?id=126649..121

"Again and again, entirely ordinary people proved that their minds could influence the machine and produce significant fluctuations on the graph, 'forcing it' to produce unequal numbers of 'heads' or 'tails'. "

[/ QUOTE ]

OWNED

puckboy 12-19-2005 09:32 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
i apologize, when i was saying "more random" i was defining that as more like a b&m shuffle, but i know that both methods are random. I just prefer the method of the B&M since this is where i started out and am more comfortable.

12-20-2005 12:12 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
The Party Poker website suggests that the RNG feeds the algorithm which picks one of 52-factorial possible decks, and then from that moment, the deck is used throughout the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only if you look at the basic info on the "welcome" type pages.

The detail page on the PRNG they use is much more specific, and it is definitely continuous-run:

[ QUOTE ]
PartyPoker.com uses a secure RNG (SHA-1 cryptographic hash algorithm) implemented by SUN which is cryptographically certified. SUN's SeedGenerator class generates the initial seed. The seed is produced by counting the number of times the VM manages to loop in a given period.The samples are translated using a permutation (s-box) and then XORed together. This process is non linear and prevents the samples from "averaging out".

The s-box is designed to have even statistical distribution. A number of sleeper threads are also created which add entropy to the system by keeping the scheduler busy.These are gathered in the background by a daemon thread thus allowing the system to continue performing it's different activities, which in turn add entropy to the random seed.The class also gathers miscellaneous system information, some machine dependent, some not.

This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round.

[/ QUOTE ]

The last part is key: updated seed used to deal cards curing each dealing round; that means the PRGN is called separately for deal, flop, turn, and river.

From http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/rng.html#top

Rudbaeck 12-20-2005 06:13 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
The detail page on the PRNG they use is much more specific, and it is definitely continuous-run:

[ QUOTE ]
PartyPoker.com uses a secure RNG (SHA-1 cryptographic hash algorithm) implemented by SUN which is cryptographically certified. SUN's SeedGenerator class generates the initial seed. The seed is produced by counting the number of times the VM manages to loop in a given period.The samples are translated using a permutation (s-box) and then XORed together. This process is non linear and prevents the samples from "averaging out".

The s-box is designed to have even statistical distribution. A number of sleeper threads are also created which add entropy to the system by keeping the scheduler busy.These are gathered in the background by a daemon thread thus allowing the system to continue performing it's different activities, which in turn add entropy to the random seed.The class also gathers miscellaneous system information, some machine dependent, some not.

This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round.

[/ QUOTE ]

The last part is key: updated seed used to deal cards curing each dealing round; that means the PRGN is called separately for deal, flop, turn, and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, 'updated' refers to them adding more entropy to the original seed generated by the Sun SeedGenerator. It does not mean a new seed is used for each card dealing round unfortunately. Please re-read the passage.

12-20-2005 01:30 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
Given the high prevalence of bad beats

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Perhaps you can share the data showing this with the rest of the class. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

12-20-2005 02:04 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
No, 'updated' refers to them adding more entropy to the original seed generated by the Sun SeedGenerator. It does not mean a new seed is used for each card dealing round unfortunately. Please re-read the passage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's analyze the English. The passage is largely a discussion of the seeding method used and how entropy is inserted. Then after describing how the seed is constantly updated, they say:

[ QUOTE ]
This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's not just a seed, it's This updated seed, the one just described as contantly updated.

[ QUOTE ]
This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round.

[/ QUOTE ]

So this freshly updated seed is used to deal cards; it is not used to generate a deck, it is used to deal cards. When is it used to do this?

[ QUOTE ]
This updated seed is then used for dealing cards during each card dealing round.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are four dealing rounds per hand of holdem, so that makes it pretty clear that the seed which is used to generate the random cards is updated between each of the four rounds in holdem.

I think I've understood that sentence properly; where exactly do you disagree?

BruinEric 12-20-2005 02:32 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]

The last part is key: updated seed used to deal cards curing each dealing round; that means the PRGN is called separately for deal, flop, turn, and river.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think we're at the same point where we were on our exchange about Paradise Poker. The initial page which I quoted is fairly clear in stating that the deck is used for the entire hand.

The page which you quoted is suggestive that the deck is continuously shuffled (assuming "each card-dealing round" is understood that way). Given the history of communication comedy with Party Poker, it is entirely possible (not to say probable) that Party means "card dealing round" as "each hand."

Given that most sites appear to employ continuous shuffle, I would guess your link is correct as opposed to the link to which I referred. But it would not be surprising if it weren't.

Rudbaeck 12-20-2005 04:54 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, 'updated' refers to them adding more entropy to the original seed generated by the Sun SeedGenerator. It does not mean a new seed is used for each card dealing round unfortunately. Please re-read the passage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's analyze the English. The passage is largely a discussion of the seeding method used and how entropy is inserted. Then after describing how the seed is constantly updated, they say:

[/ QUOTE ]

But nowhere in the text does it talk about about constantly updating seeds. It talks about how one single seed is generated. First SeedGenerator is called, and how SG creates a seed is briefly explained. Then that seed is updated with extra entropy, the details of which is detailed in the later part of the text.

'This updated seed', which is singular, is used for each of the dealing rounds. So one seed is used for each complete deal.

Maybe it comes from me a priori knowing how SG works, but to me it certainly sounds like one seed is generated for the entire deal.

It does describe updating the SG generated seed once with more entropy prior to using it for even the first two carsd. But nowhere does it mention the SeedGenerator being called again for the flop, then having that seed updated with extra entropy before dealing the flop. In fact it only refers to one single seed for the entire hand.

So, to make a flow chart.

1) SeedGenerator creates a seed, it does this from counting the number of times the Virtual Machine looped a no operation thread during a certain time interval.

2) This seed is updated with extra entroyp from other sources.

3) Two cards are dealt to each player using the seed from 2.

4) If necessary the flop, turn and river are dealt, using the seed from 2. 'This updated seed'..

Steps 1 & 2 are not repeated for flop, turn and river.

I wish they were, and Party should certainly change it so that they were. The current system is moronic, the extra cost of generating new seeds for each round is so low compared to the potential cost of having the saved seed compromised between preflop and flop say.

I want Party to do it the way you describe it. But they don't.

CORed 12-20-2005 05:47 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
Seemingly, having a good attitude is important per the Global Consciousness Project at Princeton. Human minds might have an effect on RNGs.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/display/?id=126649..121

"Again and again, entirely ordinary people proved that their minds could influence the machine and produce significant fluctuations on the graph, 'forcing it' to produce unequal numbers of 'heads' or 'tails'. "

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes people can mentally influence RNG's. That's why everyone who plays slot machines and video poker is rich and all the casinos have gone broke. I think Las Vegas's experiment has a bigger sample size than Princeton's. All they've really discovered with the "Global Consciousness Project" is that random events can generate streaks.

12-21-2005 02:38 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]

The page which you quoted is suggestive that the deck is continuously shuffled (assuming "each card-dealing round" is understood that way). Given the history of communication comedy with Party Poker, it is entirely possible (not to say probable) that Party means "card dealing round" as "each hand."


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I will try to get Party to clarify in email, but it will only work if I can get past the front line and reach actual techs. . . I'll let you know what happens.

Greg Miller 12-27-2005 01:55 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
The downside to shuffling the deck once and keeping it for the hand is that it encourages hacking. As far as I can tell there is very little extra computation required to get a new shuffle for each card, so the sites should go with the slightly better alternative. If nothing else it soothes the nerves of paranoids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, not running the PRNG for cards that are never dealt saves CPU load. PRNGs are semi-expensive.

As you said, generating the whole shuffle at once is a security issue, potentially, because PRNGs always generate the exact same sequence of numbers (cards) given the same starting state. If there's a problem with entropy collection or some other issue that allows someone to know the starting state, then the entire deck can be accurately predicted. If, on the other hand, the PRNG output stream is sampled at unpredictable times, how do you predict the next card?


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