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-   -   Explain this about the random number generators (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=398867)

TwoNiner 12-15-2005 06:51 AM

Explain this about the random number generators
 
*Not about being rigged*

When the flop comes out and I am last to act before the turn, does the Party Poker wizard of oz already know what it is going to throw out for the next card or is it shuffling around constantly, and me scratching my ass for a second caused that spade to fall?

Photoc 12-15-2005 06:53 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
The deck is already "shuffled" before the first card is ever dealt. It doesn't matter if you take time to scratch your ass or not.

2easy 12-15-2005 07:11 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
not correct.

the deck is constantly being shuffled, so the scratch could cause the spade.

Photoc 12-15-2005 07:20 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
not correct.

the deck is constantly being shuffled, so the scratch could cause a rash.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

pokergrader 12-15-2005 07:23 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
It changes from poker room to poker room.

anuj 12-15-2005 07:26 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
It changes from poker room to poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, the card is unknown until the software requests a card, only then is the number generator called for the next card.

2easy 12-15-2005 09:06 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
what he said.

mc1 12-15-2005 09:16 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Lee Jones recently stated that PokerStars at least are preshuffled before the hand starts.

BradleyT 12-15-2005 09:51 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
It changes from poker room to poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most sites have a blurb about their RNG and you will find out this is the correct answer.

icepick 12-15-2005 09:58 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
The correct answer is that it doesn't matter either way.

12-15-2005 12:14 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
I've been wondering about this too. For some reason, I would feel better about folding what would have been a winning hand if the turn/river were generated just before they were dealt. If the order of all 52 cards were generated before the hand was dealt, I'd be kicking myself harder, knowing for sure that I should have stayed in.

memphis57 12-15-2005 12:22 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
The correct answer is that it doesn't matter either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

puckboy 12-15-2005 12:28 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
isn't this the way it should be????(preshuffled) since that would most mimic a B&M room. The dealer isn't constantley shuffling the cards throughout the hand. However, The constant shuffle premise actually makes the hand "more" random then the B&M preshuffle.

Either way however the shuffle is random and NOT rigged which is all i ask for personally.

12-15-2005 12:49 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Most sites (although not all) randomly pick the next card on the fly. So, when you fold 39o preflop, and then the flop comes out 339, there is no reason to yell obsenities like my roommate does. The flop would be essentially different every time, since it is randomly picked on the fly. However, this makes absolutely no difference, and you should stop worrying about it. It is perfectly random, which cannot be said of B&M or home games, where human shuffling causes the cards to not be technically completely random. Despite all of this, online poker is RIGGED!!!!!

BruinEric 12-15-2005 12:55 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
The Party Poker website suggests that the RNG feeds the algorithm which picks one of 52-factorial possible decks, and then from that moment, the deck is used throughout the hand.

From their website:
[ QUOTE ]
Before each hand the PartyPoker.com RNG shuffles the deck into one of these many orderings. The resultant deck is as close to random, if not more so, than a physical deck produced by either a manual or machine shuffle.

*SNIP*

Once the hand is complete, the deck is discarded and a new one generated for the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other sites may do this differently. I believe Full Tilt poker uses the "constantly shuffled" method. Paradise's website is a bit unclear - but their phrasing suggests they *might* use the "constantly shuffled" method.

mtgordon 12-15-2005 01:10 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
I would argue against this. Although it doesn't make a difference in what you should do because a random card is a random card, I'd rather play at a site that doesn't know what the turn is going to be until it deals the turn. IMO this makes it harder to be hacked. If the poker room doesn't know what card is coming next, a hacker can't know either. Of course if they've already hacked the site then they probably know your cards, but at least they don't get to know what's coming.

12-15-2005 01:42 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
It changes from poker room to poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

The following is from a recent column by Lee Jones in CardPlayer:

[ QUOTE ]
Question: Do you (an online poker site) shuffle a single deck of cards and deal from it, or do you take a random card each time?

Answer: It varies. PokerStars shuffles a 52-card deck, and then starts dealing from the top. Some other sites do that, as well, while other sites choose a card randomly from the deck each time a card is needed. Either approach works just fine as long as you don’t put the cards back in the deck (“without replacement” is the official probability and stats term). And you can bet that the deal is just as random (if not more so) as the shuffle done in a brick-and-mortar cardroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

And in spite of paranoia about hacking, I have seen no evidence that it makes a difference which method is used.

TwoNiner 12-15-2005 02:48 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Thanks guys. I of course am not going to worry about a random card coming out b/c it's random and we can't knowingly effect it. But even though you can't do anything about it, it's kind of fun and sick to think that your timing caused your two outer to hit. It's like reaching in and pulling a prize out of a bag rather than waiting for the next card to come off the deck, which is kind of fun and sick at the same time. Of course it changes absolutely nothing in terms of results but it's interesting. Still probably wouldn't hurt to light some candles around your laptop or sacrifice something before some of your online sessions though.

DrSavage 12-15-2005 03:00 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
It really does change site to site. Pokerstars generates a shuffled deck. Party and UB use continuous shuffle.

Yads 12-15-2005 03:22 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, The constant shuffle premise actually makes the hand "more" random then the B&M preshuffle.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

12-15-2005 04:03 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, The constant shuffle premise actually makes the hand "more" random then the B&M preshuffle.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?

[/ QUOTE ]


Any human shuffling is technically not completely random. This is because we don't shuffle the deck perfectly. Professional dealers probably shuffle better than the donk in your friend's home game. For example, 2 Q's might might stay next to each other in the deck even after multiple human shuffles. In reality, this minor non-randomness doesn't make much of a difference; it's close enough that we don't care. The RNG comes as close to truly random as you can get.

12-15-2005 04:06 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, The constant shuffle premise actually makes the hand "more" random then the B&M preshuffle.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



How so?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd really like to see the answer to this one, if someone's got a moment. Though obviously, you get a more random shuffle with a more unique RNG.

12-15-2005 04:09 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
Any human shuffling is technically not completely random. This is because we don't shuffle the deck perfectly. Professional dealers probably shuffle better than the donk in your friend's home game. For example, 2 Q's might might stay next to each other in the deck even after multiple human shuffles. In reality, this minor non-randomness doesn't make much of a difference; it's close enough that we don't care. The RNG comes as close to truly random as you can get.


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but not the answer to the question. puckboy was suggesting that the constant shuffle was "more random" than the one-time shuffle, but both are with RNGs.

puckboy 12-15-2005 04:14 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
yup that's exactly what i was trying to say, both are random, one might be slightly better than the other, but they are both close enough to make me feel comfortable

12-15-2005 04:16 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Yeah . . . I'm still wondering why one is better than the other.

WhiteWolf 12-15-2005 04:30 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
I would argue against this. Although it doesn't make a difference in what you should do because a random card is a random card, I'd rather play at a site that doesn't know what the turn is going to be until it deals the turn. IMO this makes it harder to be hacked. If the poker room doesn't know what card is coming next, a hacker can't know either. Of course if they've already hacked the site then they probably know your cards, but at least they don't get to know what's coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been a case where a pre-generated deck, combined with a bad RN generator, has led to an exploit (from the Zoo FAQ):

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/article.php/616221

However, as a fallout of this incident, most sites have invested heavily in much more robust RNG, so the likelyhood of a pre-generated deck being exploitable is probably small.

gabyyyyy 12-15-2005 04:32 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
LOL..

Random number generator.

You guys are funny.

Like anything online is random.

mattw 12-15-2005 04:52 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
LOL..

Random number generator.

You guys are funny.

Like anything online is random.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL...

That site is rediculous.

Even I fit in over there.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



FYP

soko 12-15-2005 05:04 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been wondering about this too. For some reason, I would feel better about folding what would have been a winning hand if the turn/river were generated just before they were dealt. If the order of all 52 cards were generated before the hand was dealt, I'd be kicking myself harder, knowing for sure that I should have stayed in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see the flaw in this logic?

If you had called it would have changed the whole dynamic of the hand and therefore the random number generator would have generated a different card to fall on the river anyways.

So you might have hit if you called, but you folded so you didn't hit.

jman220 12-15-2005 05:27 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been wondering about this too. For some reason, I would feel better about folding what would have been a winning hand if the turn/river were generated just before they were dealt. If the order of all 52 cards were generated before the hand was dealt, I'd be kicking myself harder, knowing for sure that I should have stayed in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post indicates a fundamental misunderstanding about the game of poker. Read SSHE. If you have already read it, then read it again.

Photoc 12-15-2005 05:59 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
You didn't fix $hit. Thats my post from another thread, lol.

icepick 12-15-2005 06:00 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
LOL..

Random number generator.
You guys are funny.
Like anything online is random.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite popular belief, it is possible to create true random numbers with a computer, provided you have a good enough seed. Like a radioactive source, or a lava lamp, or atmospheric noise from a radio.

It's not simple by any means, but certainly not impossbile.

UATrewqaz 12-15-2005 06:11 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Depends on the algorithm.

I'm not sure what Party does, but I know some sites practice constant shuffling while others randomly determine the order of the entire deck initially before the hand starts and then that deck is used for that hand.

Rudbaeck 12-15-2005 06:22 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
isn't this the way it should be????(preshuffled) since that would most mimic a B&M room. The dealer isn't constantley shuffling the cards throughout the hand. However, The constant shuffle premise actually makes the hand "more" random then the B&M preshuffle.

[/ QUOTE ]

It already is many orders of magnitude more random than what any human dealer can accomplish before the heat death of the universe either way. But both continuous shuffle a pregen decks are equally random.

The downside to shuffling the deck once and keeping it for the hand is that it encourages hacking. As far as I can tell there is very little extra computation required to get a new shuffle for each card, so the sites should go with the slightly better alternative. If nothing else it soothes the nerves of paranoids.

Rudbaeck 12-15-2005 06:25 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah . . . I'm still wondering why one is better than the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're exactly as random. The only difference is the pregenerated deck is susceptible to hacking. And hacking isn't a question of 'if' but 'when'. (Unlike say bots destroying all online poker, which is still a bit of a question of if.)

12-15-2005 06:41 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
They're exactly as random.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. I really wanted to hear the "more random" argument though; just as it's useful to hear people rationalize why you shouldn't raise Big Slick.

UATrewqaz 12-15-2005 06:45 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Randomness has a strict mathematical definition.

If two things are truly random, neither can be more random that the other.

You can however compare two "not truely" random things and measure which one comes closest to achieving full randomness.

memphis57 12-15-2005 08:05 PM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Given the high prevalence of bad beats and the fact that bad beats can hit anyone, I prefer the name "random bummer generator".

LoveDub 12-19-2005 03:35 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It changes from poker room to poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, the card is unknown until the software requests a card, only then is the number generator called for the next card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true for all poker rooms, as was stated.

Pinky 12-19-2005 05:20 AM

Re: Explain this about the random number generators
 
Seemingly, having a good attitude is important per the Global Consciousness Project at Princeton. Human minds might have an effect on RNGs.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/display/?id=126649..121

"Again and again, entirely ordinary people proved that their minds could influence the machine and produce significant fluctuations on the graph, 'forcing it' to produce unequal numbers of 'heads' or 'tails'. "


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