Two Plus Two Older Archives

Two Plus Two Older Archives (
-   One-table Tournaments (
-   -   Hung myself by my own hooks (

ThaSaltCracka 03-10-2004 02:27 PM

Hung myself by my own hooks
okay, now as much fun as some of your are having using CrisBrown as a punching bag, maybe I can divert your attention to this hand, I would appreciate some insight.

$5 SnG [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] on Stars, only one table too..... anyways
we are down to 4, third gets a meager 6 bucks, 4th gets a beer from the fridge.
I am the short stack, although not by much, one player has around 5k, another right below 3k, third has just above 2300, and I have ~2000.
Blinds are 75/150
I am dealt JJ UTG. Now because I was the short stack I have been making several steal plays to get to where I was at, you know pushing with KTs, hoping for no callers, using my posistion, etc...
so with this hand,(which BTW I HATE), I decided to try to steal again. first mistake??? Maybe I should have raised to 500?? 800?? I dunno, I push my stack though.
everyone folds to BB, who calls with AQo.
flop is low rags, can't remember completely, anyways turn is a rag, and of course river is A, ahhhh thats Poker Stars for ya [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].
so obviously I lost, my question is though, with my hand and my table image, should I have raised 2x-3x's BB, and then pushed on the flop? I know AQ is following me to the flop, he might even force me all in if I raise 2x-3x's.
Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism?

BTW... the beer was a Corona
also BTW [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] does anyone else hate it when people complain that I lost because thats Poker Stars, as if to imply somehow PS cheats, or always lets the dog win?

ripdog 03-10-2004 02:37 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks

JJ is vulnerable to lots of cards on the flop, but at this point in the tourney you have to push in and cross your fingers. I'd guess that if you had called, the AQ would have set you in anyway. I find the "that's UB" or whatever site your playing on mentality mildly annoying, but usually I just ignore it. I think that no matter how you play this one pre-flop, you lose all or most of your chips--at the $5 level on UB, AQ unimproved isn't going anywhere regardless of how much you raise.

ThaSaltCracka 03-10-2004 02:45 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
the $5 level on UB, AQ unimproved isn't going anywhere regardless of how much you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is true usually early in a tourney, but later on not so much.
so you think regardless of what I raise here AQ is going to force me all in?
I thought seriously about folding this preflop.

William 03-10-2004 02:57 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks

I would have bet 600 pre-flop, called and/or moved in if reraised.

On the flop with small cards, I would have moved in. This gives you a small protection against later overcards (if the others fold) but it also pays less if your hand is good at showdown.

I don't know how people play at the 5$ buy-ins, but I see no reason why they shouldn't take the game seriously. I guess the play at the stakes they can afford, and even what looks as a small amount to others, is relevant to them.

I can't advise you to train at a lower level [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (I don't even now if there is one) so hang on, it was a bad beat, it happens.

Take care,

PrayingMantis 03-10-2004 03:03 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
I thought seriously about folding this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think folding this is a mistake, although it's true that playing JJ here is not an easy task. However, you must play it, IMO.

I see the blinds are still not huge, and even as a short stack you have a lot of time to play. That's why pushing is maybe not the optimal move. On the other hand, if they see you as a regular maniac, for pushing many times, pushing with JJ is maybe best, if you believe someone will call you with an underdog.

There is another option here, and that's to raise, and push on any flop. That can work, sometimes, against players with unimproved AQ or such. If you get reraised all-in PF, I would call.

On the other hand, I'm not completely sure that raising PF, and folding on the flop to a big bet if A or K show, is a bad idea. You'll still have time and chips to play, and if your opponents are passive enough, being short stack, not too short, is not necessarily the end.

Only some thoughts.

ThaSaltCracka 03-10-2004 03:05 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
I can't advise you to train at a lower level (I don't even now if there is one) so hang on, it was a bad beat, it happens.

[/ QUOTE ]
what do you mean by train? do you mean practice? I mostly play the 5 & 10 SnG's because I don't really want to pay more for the game, although the few 30's I have played I actually enjoyed playing.

On the flop with small cards, I would have moved in

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking this myself after the hand, I know that the only hands that will call here are hands that are or have the potential to dominate me, so maybe I should have seen the flop here before pushing. I sort of thought if I had played it this way, I probably would have won the hand. So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.

NotMitch 03-10-2004 03:05 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks

Having played a lot in the $5 games at Starts, your game plan is right on. I would make my standard open there and still have plenty of chips as leverage on the flop, or get away from it on a really ugly flop.

ThaSaltCracka 03-10-2004 03:08 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
I only thought about folding because I really really hate this hand, and I said that sort of jokingly [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for the advice guys, I should have opened, and then saw the flop before pushing or folding.

AleoMagus 03-10-2004 03:10 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
Personally, I think that hand went exactly as you could have hoped for (except for losing of course)

I know that you are on the bubble here, but I'm not hoping for a steal in this situation - I'm hoping to double up and get back into contention for the win.

If you have been making a ton of steals, I think this is a great hand to push because you are likely to get called by weaker hands that are looking to catch you in the act. Maybe on the bubble a coin flip (even a small edge) is not a great idea?

I don't know. I just think that you are going to steal a lot and even if you are called, not many hands are really gonna scare your jacks too much. QQ, KK, AA is all that really worries you. The only way to avoid paying these hand off is just to fold the jacks outright (or by raising small and checking and folding to a Q,K, or A bet big on the flop) - and 4 handed there is no way I'm doing that.

Interested in others opinions here
Brad S

William 03-10-2004 03:48 PM

Re: Hung myself by my own hooks
So I guess I am asking if you guys like this kind of strategy in this situation, with say pocket pairs like 99-QQ.

I myself, would like to know the answer to this question [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

These are the tricky pairs, the ones that cost you that place at the final table or a bigger money prize.

If people bother to answer, you are going to be burried in different answers, moves, opinions.
All of those answers will be based on personal experiences, so you have to be carefull when you read them.

Anyway, my opinion on the subject is that the lower the pair, the more interested you are in just winning the pot right there. with QQ for example, you are interested in someone calling you, but he has to pay a price for it, and if the flop is rags, you still want him to call you, still for the correct price. If it is 99 or TT, and you weren't able to claim the pot pre-flop, you don't want anybody to see the turn, so you should be trying to push them off the pot.

This sounds easy, but not everybody reacts to your bets as you wish them to do, many factors have an influence on opponents reactions.

The blinds
The size of the stacks at the table
Yours and others positions
Your table image
Your recent actions at the table
Some personal factore we have no way of finding out about
Many other things I have probably forgotten to mention

For example, if you have been stealing a lot, they are all waiting for an occasion to reraise you. Good if you are holding QQ, bad if it is 99.
If there is a very short stack that is trying to double up, again, good with QQ, bad with 99.
If you have a very tight image, good with 99, bad with QQ.
You have stolen the 3 last pots? Good with QQ, bad with 99.

You get the idea; Here is where poker gets complicated; You have to be able to analize all of those factors, and find out how the other players are likely to react to your actions. And it has to go fast, because if you think too much, they will start thinking about that too, unless you WANT them to start wondering and are pausing deliberately.

So I guess we are back at the good old IT DEPENDS. Time to use you brain and find out that because you have so many chips, are in such position, have played/stealed so many hands/pots in the last couple of rounds and because you know this or that about them, and they know you know, etc...the right move is "BINGO"

Confused? That's poker. But there is no magic answer.

Take care,

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:29 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.