a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

neither villain here is much out of the ordinary. To spew forth or not to spew, that is the question.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB folds, Hero .. ?

Second Question
 

OK, so the majority of people are going for calling. I was thinking that raising might have been the popular play to try to push him out of a draw, but his odds will be slightly better (calling 2) than mine if he's on a draw. It will be easy for him to call if he's on a draw for 1 more, but he might reraise. He would probably fold a 7 or 6 though.

Anyway, as with the vote, I called, MP2 calls behind.

Turn: (7 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>
Hero .....

Action is on me with a flush draw plus now an overcard. What now for my K9?

Re: Second Question
 

Check-call!!

Edit - also, I think preflop is a fold. K9o 4-way?? Not very special.

Re: Second Question
 

probably getting 7:1 I think it's an easy call. Do I have 12.5% equity in a 4-way hand with K9o? Pokerstove gives me about 20% vs typical limping, raising &amp; sb complete-two hands.

Re: Second Question
 

if the players aren't out of line, this is a fold. At best you have 6 clean out and they might be for 1/2 the pot plus there are going to be redraws if you hit. I could argue for a call if you close the betting, but you don't and it may be raised behind you.

Re: Second Question
 

this would be great if you were allin.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

wierd...very weird distribution you have here for your poll.

i was on the wierd end of it. MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.

so i voted raise.

on the turn w/ the As, you check if you raised or called ont he flop. if the spade or T or 5 comes on the river, bet. otherwise, check fold.

Barron

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
this would be great if you were allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think on the flop you can tell well enough how to play K9o to make up for the lack of position? You have reasonable relative position to the preflop raiser. How much pf equity in this scenario would you want to play a hand calling a raise in the BB?

Or is it just a matter of saying (eg here) &gt;= KJ raise, &lt;= KT fold? Very interesting to know your reasoning.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i voted raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

close or not close?

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably getting 7:1 I think it's an easy call. Do I have 12.5% equity in a 4-way hand with K9o? Pokerstove gives me about 20% vs typical limping, raising &amp; sb complete-two hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why I hate when people mention pokerstove, becuz it makes people make bad decisions like calling in the BB with K9o.

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
this would be great if you were allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

And since he's not, it'd be better if he were in position.

Stop using PokerStove to make preflop decisions!

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
wierd...very weird distribution you have here for your poll.

i was on the wierd end of it. MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.

so i voted raise.

on the turn w/ the As, you check if you raised or called ont he flop. if the spade or T or 5 comes on the river, bet. otherwise, check fold.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought about whether the hero is better off raising the flop or calling and I came to the conclusion that the CO is probably not raising overs on this kind of flop. This is obvioulsy just a guess but on this board even aggressive players will call or fold with their overs instead of raising. And I also felt that the MP guy is not betting into the raiser with a draw unless its a combo draw with a pair. So with the combination that I felt the CO had an overpair and that the MP guy probably had a pair that he may or may not fold, I decided that the hero is not going to win this hand unless he hits so calling is best in my opinion. Im not really saying Im right here, just telling you what I was thinking.

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, so the majority of people are going for calling. I was thinking that raising might have been the popular play to try to push him out of a draw, but his odds will be slightly better (calling 2) than mine if he's on a draw. It will be easy for him to call if he's on a draw for 1 more, but he might reraise. He would probably fold a 7 or 6 though.

Anyway, as with the vote, I called, MP2 calls behind.

Turn: (7 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>
Hero .....

Action is on me with a flush draw plus now an overcard. What now for my K9?

[/ QUOTE ]
If the villain has JJs,QQs,or KKs with no spade, this will be the scariest turn card ever. If you think the villain is capable of folding these type of hands than you should checkraise the turn, if not check/call.

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably getting 7:1 I think it's an easy call. Do I have 12.5% equity in a 4-way hand with K9o? Pokerstove gives me about 20% vs typical limping, raising &amp; sb complete-two hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


you're out of position with a hand that is spectacular at being second best. if only the game was as easy as preflop equity...

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

I like a raise. you take a bit the worst of it right now but this is definitely a board where you can start cleaning up some outs. you might be able to fold out a T, making a 9 good, or you could fold out bottom pair that could beat you if you hit a K. you could also fold out some bigger spades if they don't have much.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

thats a lot of pretty stringent assumptions you've set out there...

loosen them just a touch and i think you're decision changes.

Barron

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

I fold preflop, but here I'd call. It's probably somewhat close, but I think it's best.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

There seems to be quite a bit of value in raising to try to clean up K outs and even possibly backdoor [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] outs.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
thats a lot of pretty stringent assumptions you've set out there...

loosen them just a touch and i think you're decision changes.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
You have a point. I do however think it is at least very close between calling and raising.

Re: Second Question
 

K9o is a hand that has substantial reverse-implied odds relative to its equity. In some spots, you clearly miss and fold- oh well, that goes into the 80% bucket. In spots where you hit, it is ulikely that you will be adequately compensated if in fact you have a winner. But how easily are you going to get away from a flop you get a piece of?

Basically, you have to win more than you lose in the hands you continue with for the preflop call to be +EV. Unless your opponents are very bad, this is more easily said than done with a hand like K9.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given that you're at least going to call, you don't have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of tossing in that extra bet for the raise +EV. Still, do you think any of those hands, besides the K7, is folding for two more?

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP bets after limp/calling preflop. he likely has the spade draw/pair + draw/naked 9/ naked T if hes really bad/T+pair. many of these hands you dont want there. the spade draw wont fold. but a hdn like K7s will likely fold for 2 cold. further, the CO could easily be raising overs in position for a free card or has a pair. I think you have enough equity here to warrant getting the pot HU and cleaning up outs to raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given that you're at least going to call, you don't have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of tossing in that extra bet for the raise +EV.

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regardless of priors, you dont have to gain much to make the marginal benefit of the extra sb +ev.

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Still, do you think any of those hands, besides the K7, is folding for two more?

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you can fold out hands like T+pair that thought it was clearly ahead of the CO raiser if CO was on overs so instead of giving the CO a chance to take a free card, MP decided to bet. folding out a T clears up 9s as outs if CO is on Ahigh overs or a hand like A8s.

given MP open limped, he can have a large range of hands that hit this flop that may include a T or another 9, some of which may fold for 2 back.

Barron

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
K9o is a hand that has substantial reverse-implied odds relative to its equity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely, and I understand that. If a King flops you have to be extremely careful to find out if someone else has a King, because if they do they very likely have you outkicked. The pf equity (allin) is a win/lose after all the cards are out; but as I know a decent MP/LP player won't be raising with K7 or K8 I can get away from it.

[ QUOTE ]
In some spots, you clearly miss and fold- oh well, that goes into the 80% bucket. In spots where you hit, it is ulikely that you will be adequately compensated if in fact you have a winner. But how easily are you going to get away from a flop you get a piece of?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why you need to play it. I think you win the "most" from the 9 hitting rather than a King as people play Kings with better kickers more often. It's an extremely valid concern. Nobody has yet said whether they play KT, KJ etc in this circumstance. We must be pretty close to the line here.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, you have to win more than you lose in the hands you continue with for the preflop call to be +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
to be a nit, this is wrong because you already have 8 SB in the pot. So you need to win at least -7 SB on average, postflop, for the pf call to be &gt;0 EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Unless your opponents are very bad, this is more easily said than done with a hand like K9.

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Point taken. I think I always fold K7 and usually K8 here (depending on the players). K9 and above I play in this specific scenario. I'd be folding it against an earlier position raise or for more than 1 extra bet.

I think the fact that you are a decent way ahead makes it definitely playable here at 7:1. In fact this hand shows one example of how the 9 alone may make the hand a winner.

Results and thoughts
 

Turn: (7 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue"> (3 players) </font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

River: (7 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="red">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Showdown: (9 BB)
CO has red tens.
MP2 hand history shows he had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pretty loose limp)

So a flop raise is probably unlikely to have pushed out MP2, as he did have both straight outs and trips/2pair outs as well totalling 13 (although one 9 was dead). But if he had had A6/7/8? he may have folded it. Is that likely enough? Interesting hand.

Re: Second Question
 

If either one of these players had a flush draw, you would be drawing dead 50% of the time on the turn. I check and fold on the turn, but then again, I like a fold on the flop. It's too close to call when two of your outs could be dead. Not to mention someone could hold 99 in which case, you're drawing to a split if you're not drawing dead....blah blah blah....i really think this is one that can be let go on the flop, or maybe even PF. I dont like K9, especailly OOP.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

Here's something I havent seen mentioned yet. It's within the realm of possibility to fold this hand PF. Seriously.

Re: Second Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
If either one of these players had a flush draw, you would be drawing dead 50% of the time on the turn. I check and fold on the turn, but then again, I like a fold on the flop. It's too close to call when two of your outs could be dead. Not to mention someone could hold 99 in which case, you're drawing to a split if you're not drawing dead....blah blah blah....i really think this is one that can be let go on the flop, or maybe even PF. I dont like K9, especailly OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

completely agree about the fold on the flop. one thing you didnt mention is that there is a decent chance it make end up 3 or 4-bet back to you

Re: Second Question
 

exactly. i hardly see the value in playing this hand OOP PF, and then cold calling OOP with a draw that isn't very big for a pot that ins't, either.

Re: Results and thoughts
 

I like folding this hand PF, still. It is nice to know you were drawing very live, though.

I'd fold on the flop, though.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

Tx:
[ QUOTE ]
Here's something I havent seen mentioned yet. It's within the realm of possibility to fold this hand PF. Seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

ALL1N:
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I think preflop is a fold. K9o 4-way?? Not very special

[/ QUOTE ]

Jayheaps:
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if the players aren't out of line, this is a fold

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Jasont:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this would be great if you were allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

And since he's not, it'd be better if he were in position.

Stop using PokerStove to make preflop decisions!


[/ QUOTE ]
READ: fold preflop.

Westly878:
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I hate when people mention pokerstove, becuz it makes people make bad decisions like calling in the BB with K9o.


[/ QUOTE ]
READ: fold preflop.

Sthief09:
[ QUOTE ]
you're out of position with a hand that is spectacular at being second best. if only the game was as easy as preflop equity...

[/ QUOTE ]
READ: fold preflop.

jetsonsgodcanfly:
[ QUOTE ]
K9o is a hand that has substantial reverse-implied odds relative to its equity. In some spots, you clearly miss and fold- oh well, that goes into the 80% bucket. In spots where you hit, it is ulikely that you will be adequately compensated if in fact you have a winner. But how easily are you going to get away from a flop you get a piece of?

Basically, you have to win more than you lose in the hands you continue with for the preflop call to be +EV. Unless your opponents are very bad, this is more easily said than done with a hand like K9.

[/ QUOTE ]
READ: fold preflop.


no tx, nobody mentioned folding K9 preflop.

Barron

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

Well D, I didnt read every post here. And those which I did read didnt include this idea. However, I'm glad to see that my opinion on folding PF was consistent with some of the others around here.


Q 9 s

65 PF.....

Tex

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well D, I didnt read every post here. And those which I did read didnt include this idea. However, I'm glad to see that my opinion on folding PF was consistent with some of the others around here.


Q 9 s

65 PF.....

Tex

[/ QUOTE ]

Q9s is an insta call.

65 is a hand id rather have than K9o. and if it was suited id instacall as well

Barron

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

Congrats on your mod nomination and acceptance.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

Oh yeah, and that was &lt;EDIT&gt; $65 PF. Not 65.

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

so the views are pretty evenly divided then [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But nobody but nobody has addressed the question I posed as a result of the 'fold pf' chorus, namely, do we fold KTo pf here with a limper, raiser and 1.5 completer in SB? What about KJo?

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

fold preflop?

Re: a tight flop spot in the big blind hand quiz
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're way out of line there bob [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]