God does love everybody
 

While most Calvinist will argue that God does not love everyone, Only loving those whom He predestined. God does love everyone in a sense.

God has a commen love for the whole world. Every Person falls under this catagory. If God did not love the whole world then He would not let us continue to live on the earth. However those whome He has predestined He has a special love for. Because of this love He chose to save them.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
However those whome He has predestined He has a special love for. Because of this love He chose to save them.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did he save them from? I think he hates me, but the lightning bolts keep missing, not the two outers though.

Mack

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
What did he save them from?

[/ QUOTE ]

from Hell

Re: God does love everybody
 

1 Tim 2:1-6;
2 Peter 3:9

Re: God does love everybody
 

Romans 9
Ephesians 1
John17

Re: God does love everybody
 

Does god act contrary to his stated desire to save all people by virtue of an involuntary twitch.
Has he got some form of tourettes syndrome??

Re: God does love everybody
 

just a thought. perhaps he couldnt be bothered to save everyone because he was due to play in a freeroll

Re: God does love everybody
 

God set out a test, and the Christians failed.

See, he instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this schtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

Re: God does love everybody
 

I wrote something similar a while ago. My father actually believes something similar to that.

Re: God does love everybody
 

Off topic.
New thread material.
But while were at it.
Yes these rational men are truly creators:
Of Global warming, of nuclear bombing, and of rational government (see Stalin)

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
Off topic.
New thread material.
But while were at it.
Yes these rational men are truly creators:
Of Global warming, of nuclear bombing, and of rational government (see Stalin)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah I see, so men of reason are Stalinist golbal terrorists. Sounds reasonable?

Re: God does love everybody
 

Many political systems, including the american constitution and political leaders make extensive reference to God and religious ideals. Soviet communism was notable in representing a system supposedly based on reason rather than upon religious ideals.
The soviet suppression of religion did not really seem to make the CCCP a better place.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many political systems, including the american constitution and political leaders make extensive reference to God and religious ideals. Soviet communism was notable in representing a system supposedly based on reason rather than upon religious ideals.
The soviet suppression of religion did not really seem to make the CCCP a better place.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you insist on using Soviet Communism as an example of "reason" then I will insist on using Spanish Inquisition as an example of Christian "compassion". And we will get nowhere.

Oh, and P.S., your premise is entirely wrong. The founding fathers were likely more influenced by reason than Christian ethics. Men like Jefferson were students of the Age of Enlightenment and the authors of that period. And thus they built a government based more on reason than Christian dogma, otherwise there would be no need for a separation of church and state if you believe that the goal was to codify christian morality.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
God set out a test, and the Christians failed.

See, he instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this schtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I actually like that idea a lot, strange as it may seem.

Mack

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will insist on using Spanish Inquisition as an example of Christian "compassion".

[/ QUOTE ]

Good example. I recall I quote to the effect:
"The screams of the penitent are like the singing of angels, each scream represents a soul taking another step toward heaven".

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Off topic.
New thread material.
But while were at it.
Yes these rational men are truly creators:
Of Global warming, of nuclear bombing, and of rational government (see Stalin)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah I see, so men of reason are Stalinist golbal terrorists. Sounds reasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me a war not motivated by religion, and I'll show you a religous motivation for that war.

Regards Mack

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
Show me a war not motivated by religion, and I'll show you a religous motivation for that war.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWI and WWII
please teach me some history.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God set out a test, and the Christians failed.

See, he instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this schtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I actually like that idea a lot, strange as it may seem.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't propose it to be the case. Just that if there was a god, who would he want to call His people: the sheep who denounce their earthly bodies and minds, or those who seek and strive to know more rather than accept multi-millenia-old myths?

I wrote an essay "God is Dead" on this subject in which God ends his own supreme being life after seeing the flaw in his own creation: namely, that a being meant to serve and worship is in the end, ugly and useless, while a being meant to create, challenge, and achieve without the day-to-day reliance on the almighty, is in the end much more beautiful and worthwhile to the universe.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Show me a war not motivated by religion, and I'll show you a religous motivation for that war.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWI and WWII
please teach me some history.

[/ QUOTE ]

WWII - What do you want? Are you suggesting the German plan to eradicate Jews from the world is not a religious motivation. It was not condemned by the Vatican either, which is as good as support in my book.

[ QUOTE ]
The Pope's defenders have claimed that such a declaration would only have caused the Nazis to retaliate heavily against both the Church and the Jews, and that by remaining silent he enabled a Church underground to save tens or hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe but maybe not, I don't trust them anyway, these kinds of justifications are too convenient for me.

Give me time WWI will be no better is my guess.

Mack

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
God set out a test, and the Christians failed.

See, he instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this schtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good way to nullify Pascal's Wager type arguments.

chez

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]


While most Calvinist will argue that God does not love everyone, Only loving those whom He predestined. God does love everyone in a sense.

God has a commen love for the whole world. Every Person falls under this catagory. If God did not love the whole world then He would not let us continue to live on the earth. However those whome He has predestined He has a special love for. Because of this love He chose to save them.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have no quibble with your point, I just avoid calling it love since he allows them to exist only as his vessels to demonstrate his love to those he has chosen. It's like if I were your enemy, but one of my brothers was your henchmen and you came down on hard times financially. I may lend/give you money to help you out, though my ultimate motive is to help my brother out. It's me being nice to you, is it me loving you?

Another Question For Not ready
 

"I just avoid calling it love since he allows them to exist only as his vessels to demonstrate his love to those he has chosen."

Not Ready. You once wrote a post similar to Spaminator's original post. Udon'tkmowmickey (do I capitalize the "u' at the beginning of a sentence?) rightly doesn't let you two off the hook so easy. He stays consistent with his beliefs.

But there are implications for those beliefs that you are clearly uncomfortable with. Plus you have stated that it is not necessary to have those beliefs to be saved. So why cling to them? It's not like you have to become a Catholic.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]


But there are implications for those beliefs that you are clearly uncomfortable with. Plus you have stated that it is not necessary to have those beliefs to be saved. So why cling to them? It's not like you have to become a Catholic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you addressing me or Notready or Spaminator?

You can capitalize the U whenever you feel like it David.

Re: God does love everybody
 

Bible = God's Book = Pass the acid, dude

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
God set out a test, and the Christians failed.

See, he instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this schtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

That rules. Seriusly, my thoughts have been the same for quite some time.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

Plus you have stated that it is not necessary to have those beliefs to be saved. So why cling to them?


[/ QUOTE ]

Which?

Re: God does love everybody
 

Does God love Satan?

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

"Which"

I'm talking about this whole issue and specifically udon'tknow mickey's answer to spaminator.

"While most Calvinist will argue that God does not love everyone, Only loving those whom He predestined. God does love everyone in a sense.

God has a commen love for the whole world. Every Person falls under this catagory. If God did not love the whole world then He would not let us continue to live on the earth. However those whome He has predestined He has a special love for. Because of this love He chose to save them.


udon'tknowmickey:


"I have no quibble with your point, I just avoid calling it love since he allows them to exist only as his vessels to demonstrate his love to those he has chosen. It's like if I were your enemy, but one of my brothers was your henchmen and you came down on hard times financially. I may lend/give you money to help you out, though my ultimate motive is to help my brother out. It's me being nice to you, is it me loving you?"

Spaminator's statement is silly. Udontknowmickey realizes that. But his point, if true, makes these discussions irrelevant. If you can be saved even if you think udon't mickey is wrong (about the whole predestination thing), then why not assume he is wrong?

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you can be saved even if you think udon't mickey is wrong (about the whole predestination thing), then why not assume he is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember all the details concerning predestination that udon't went into but the Bible teaches the doctrine unequivocally so why would I assume it's wrong?

Dad\'s cred
 

[ QUOTE ]
kidluckee:
God ... instilled us with a powerful mind capable of reason, logic, compassion, etc. He gave us dominion over all the earth. And he gave us a set of lies which would betray everything good in us -- told us we were insignificant, unworthy, unable to do anything for ourselves without his help or mercy. Those who bought into this shtick (aka Christians) sickened the Almighty. But there were those who chose to ignore that hogwash and took pleasure in their god-given bodies and minds and lived as free-thinking men rather than unworthy sheep, and were good in heart not because it offered some afterlife reward but because it was the course of reason. These men lived as creators, challenging the world and the ideas around them, rather than sacrifice their given faculties for reason in favor of comfortable myths. These men passed the test and were the true receivers of God's blessings.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
David Sklansky :
My father actually believes something similar to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

"I don't remember all the details concerning predestination that udon't went into but the Bible teaches the doctrine unequivocally so why would I assume it's wrong?"

1. If it is true in the way udon'tknowmickey means it, rather than a cute way of saying that God can see the future, what's the point of talking about it, or anything else for that matter? If there is even a slight chance in your mind the precept is wrong, or that you have misunderstood it, why not go under the assumption you have, since there is no reason not to?

2. If the Bible teaches it unequivacably, how come the great majority of studious Christians don't agree with you? (Notice that your answer presumably cannot be the same as your answer as to why atheists don't believe in God or why Muslims don't believe in Jesus.)

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote something similar a while ago. My father actually believes something similar to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet disputed my claim that it was better to live as if there were no God even if there happened to be one.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]

1. what's the point of talking about it


[/ QUOTE ]

I said in a previous post that this is a very difficult doctrine. I don't necessarily agree with the way it is usally expressed. Also, I don't bring up the topic. But I do try to answer questions if asked.

[ QUOTE ]

2. If the Bible teaches it unequivacably


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe anyone who accepts the Bible as God's word will accept that it teaches predestination. The concept is contained in both the Old and New Testaments. Arminians accept it and Catholic giants like Augustine and Aquinas taught it as did Luther. The battle is over the details of what it means, and it isn't necessary to presenting the Gospel. My position is that God is sovereign and man is responible and I can't make these two ideas fit together logically. My failure.

Re: God does love everybody
 

Actually I have thought a lot about this. I really don't know. This one is very hard for me.

Re: God does love everybody
 

[ QUOTE ]
WWII - What do you want? Are you suggesting the German plan to eradicate Jews from the world is not a religious motivation.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand it, the persecution of the Jews was not a motivation behind the War itself. It was German internal political policy. The invasion of Poland and the anexation of austria were not I believe intended to facilitate the elimination of Jews, or as part of the process of rendering the world 'Judenrein'.
Equally the allied response to the German military invasion, was a response the military expansion, rather than a response to Germany's anti-semitic internal politics.

Re: God does love everybody.
 

..tewaga...g*d shining on everyone..


or : "for g*d so loved the world...."

it just is


gl

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe anyone who accepts the Bible as God's word will accept that it teaches predestination. The concept is contained in both the Old and New Testaments. Arminians accept it and Catholic giants like Augustine and Aquinas taught it as did Luther. The battle is over the details of what it means, and it isn't necessary to presenting the Gospel. My position is that God is sovereign and man is responible and I can't make these two ideas fit together logically. My failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is the details that are vitally important. By one interpretation of predestination, that is that those predestined to perdition are only so because of God's foreknowledge of their free response to the gospel, all men can know that God really loves each and every one of them and wishes them to be saved.

Whereas a differing interpretation, the Calvinist one, means that men are asked to believe the preposterous notion that God created certain men for the sole purpose of damning them, and thus men can have no confidence of the love of God for them. Which of course leads more people to reject the gospel, the insidious fruit of individual non-authoritative interpretation of scripture.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

"But it is the details that are vitally important. By one interpretation of predestination, that is that those predestined to perdition are only so because of God's foreknowledge of their free response to the gospel, all men can know that God really loves each and every one of them and wishes them to be saved.

Whereas a differing interpretation, the Calvinist one, means that men are asked to believe the preposterous notion that God created certain men for the sole purpose of damning them, and thus men can have no confidence of the love of God for them. Which of course leads more people to reject the gospel, the insidious fruit of individual non-authoritative interpretation"

Although it may not be my place to get involved, it sure seems that you did a nearly perfect job of backing Not Ready into an inescapable corner. His only way out of it is to say that regardless of the consequences, the Calvinist interpretation is not an interpretation at all, but rather crystal clear reading, while other so called interpretations are obvious bending of the words to avoid difficulties.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

Fortunately I stand on the shoulders of theological giants who stand themselves on the solid foundation of the true church and true doctrine, whereas so many of these others stand on the shoulders of theological midgets who stand in the quicksand of individual interpretation that produced the plethora of conflicting protestant denominations. Thus I, being only a midget myself, can stand a little taller in my theological understanding.

Re: Another Question For Not ready
 

excuse me but predestination was massly beleived before Arminianism was even thought up.