Hellmuth and Math
 

A math-type player would never be able to make that AK laydown against AA on that kind of board. The math type would just say, "Okay, I have AK and there's another Ace on the board and this will lower the chances that he has AA by so and so %, therefore, I call". The math type would have been broke at that point.

To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math. He could have swept Jesus (a math guy) in the heads up championship. But Jesus got lucky that one time. Hellmuth still totally outplayed him.

Before folding his AK in the WSOP 2005 televised event, Hellmuth asked the guy a question like, "Do you remember my name?" And he folded based on that guy's response to this. Poker genius displayed on a grand scale.

Hellmuth may not be the best all around player but he is the best nolimit hold'em player.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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A math-type player would never be able to make that AK laydown against AA on that kind of board. The math type would just say, "Okay, I have AK and there's another Ace on the board and this will lower the chances that he has AA by so and so %, therefore, I call". The math type would have been broke at that point.

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phil thought he had QQ. at least, thats what he asked him. ur point is moot.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

As I posted in the OTHER thread about this very hand....


The tells that the guy gave off were freaking OBVIOUS (and painful to watch actually).


The board was AQTT when the guy (who struck me as the kind of guy who is normally a passive player) bet $10k.

Phil is already behind AQ, KJ and any T (as well as QQ and AA).

There aren't a whole lot of hands that Phil beats that the guy would make such a large bet with (another AK maybe?? AJ or KK?? not likely).


Decent laydown?? Yes.
Great laydown?? No.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math.

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So much for you David Sklansky! A "mere" Math Guy ...yuck, phooey! That was quite a laydown though....I bet more people take shots at Helmuth in the future...Hmmm...already happened...seems I recall someone pushing in with K,Js against him. I wonder if he brought it on himself with all of his great laydowns.

Vince

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

If by "math-type player" you mean "someone who has no ability to read people or read hands and has no understanding of what anybody else at the table is doing" then yes, you are correct. Someone who can't read people or hands can't fold there. But someone who can looks at that old guy who hasn't played a hand in 15 orbits suddenly reraises you, you have to consider his possible hands.

In fact, the fact that he waits 15 orbits to play a hand should indicate to a "math guy" who pays attention that he's only playing ultra-premium hands, reraising at the most with AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ...and a math-type guy would say, I split with 1 of those, lose to 3 of them, and beat 1 of them, so I should fold.

And the flop was A44, turn Q, no tens on board as mentioned previously.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math. He could have swept Jesus (a math guy) in the heads up championship. But Jesus got lucky that one time. Hellmuth still totally outplayed him.

Before folding his AK in the WSOP 2005 televised event, Hellmuth asked the guy a question like, "Do you remember my name?" And he folded based on that guy's response to this. Poker genius displayed on a grand scale.

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These concepts you bring up are mind blowing. I would be interested in any books you may write on this revolutionary topic of "reading" people. Have you contacted Mason yet?

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

As another poster said, both here and I think in the MTT forum (right?) this was a good laydown, not a phenomenal laydown.

The guy was textbook Caro "fish acting weak when he has the nuts", it's kinda scary taht the OP thought it was so good... wanna come to my home game?

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

I remember Howard Lederer mentioned in either a magazine or a website that he had made a mistake talking with Hellmuth during a hand in a major tournament. Hellmuth made a great read based on how Lederer responded to the question and it cost Howard lots of $$$$$. If someone has a link to this it would be appreciated.

Hellmuth is well known for being excellent at reading people's voices. Maybe that is why he talks a lot. He spots tells in how people talk. Even a world class pro like Lederer was vulnerable. In the article I mentioned, Lederer promised never to talk with Phil again while being in a hand with him.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

A44 not ATT.

My bad.

That does make the lay-down a LITTLE bit better (since any 4 is less likely than any T...and KJ for the straight is not an issue either).

Still not a 'phenomenal' laydown though.

It IS the type of hand that would send many bad players broke though.
But good players are supposed to be able to make plays like that.
And bad players make bad plays...that's why they're bad players.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

He had the KJ dude dominated with his AK. He lost because of bad luck. Phil is a genius at putting his money in with the best of it during key times. He is a psychology genius when it comes to reading and manipulating other players. But he really needs help with his own psychology. Perhaps his psychiatrist wife should help.