I catch my overcard... now what?
 

SB is a 73/20 LAGtard. Aggression is pretty high on all streets, especially on the river.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

Looks good. Unfortunately, LAGtards can catch hands too.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

i take the call down/bet the river if checked to line here.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i take the call down/bet the river if checked to line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's as aggressive as Bill says, I think you have to find a raise somewhere with TPGK.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

Raise turn...what's the point in waiting for the river to raise a LAG?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

Why?
On this board, double why?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise turn...what's the point in waiting for the river to raise a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a LAG will likely continue betting on the river, so....

1) You extract 1 more bet from a bluff
2) Generally, you are less likely to be 3-bet on the river than the turn.
3) You have the option of calling the river if the board turns scary.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why?
On this board, double why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why what?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

Why raise?
More specifically raise on what street, and why?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise?
More specifically raise on what street, and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an aggressive player, I want to get in at least 1 raise with TPGK on a non-straight, non-flush board.

I raise the river for the reasons mentioned in my other post.

Against a less aggressive opponent, I would call the entire way.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

i am really, really, really against the river raise UNLESS the lagtard also has some recessive Calltard genes in him. Raising the turn is acceptable to charge the huge number of draws out there, but raising the river sets you up for three bets from all kinds of hands that beat you, and folds from all kinds of hands that you beat. worst of both worlds IMO.

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i am really, really, really against the river raise UNLESS the lagtard also has some recessive Calltard genes in him. Raising the turn is acceptable to charge the huge number of draws out there, but raising the river sets you up for three bets from all kinds of hands that beat you, and folds from all kinds of hands that you beat. worst of both worlds IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

So far, I'm very happy with the discussion. For those of you supporting a turn raise, can you fold TPGK to a 3-bet from this guy?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because a LAG will likely continue betting on the river, so....

1) You extract 1 more bet from a bluff
2) Generally, you are less likely to be 3-bet on the river than the turn.
3) You have the option of calling the river if the board turns scary.


[/ QUOTE ]

but the "L" stands for loose, might he pay off a turn raise and a river bet....
might he also not bet the river...
how likely is it he 3-bets the turn with a hand we would be obliged to call with (K4, K8, a worse K, QJ, T8)...
how do we define scary- if he was tight we would suspect it far more liekly an A hit him if he leads, for example, but with a guy playing 70% of his hands, can we narrow down his range of hands enough to allow us even identify a scare card?


IMO the wait to the river line is better applied in spots where:

1) it is less clear we are ahead and wait to make our opponent more disinclined to 3-bet a better hand or

2) we are afraid our opponent will fold a hopeless or longshot hand to our turn raise when he would have bluffed the river unimproved

Here I think we are ahead a great bit, and it appears opponent will bet many worse hands for us on the river if we call..so how often will he pay off a worse hand if we raise (I am assuming he won't make a bad fold to a turn raise)? I think a lot with multiple draws out there

BTW, higher river aggresssion is consistent with river bluffing and river folding, so will a river raise get paid off?

Re: I catch my overcard... now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you supporting a turn raise, can you fold TPGK to a 3-bet from this guy?

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently you would given you think he could 3-bet the river with a worse hand. The ability to 3-bet a worse hand (or a crappy 2 pair) on the turn is something his stats and lagtard description don't necessarily convey, but I think I would call a turn 3-bet getting 9ish - 1. The problem being the river plan unimproved

Re: results
 

Well, as always this is purely academic, but LAGtard had KQo and MHING. Obviously, I felt he would 3-bet a worse hand on the river, and to some extent I think the result confirms this.

However, this is why I brought up how to handle a turn 3-bet by LAGtard. If you call it down, you're losing/winning the same amount.