Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

There are currently 1.3 million adults in prison(source ). Of that 1.3 million, 24.7% are incarcerated for drug offenses ( source ).

In 2002, there were 840,000 police and detectives in the United States ( source). In addition, there are 695,000 lawyers (source), 200,000 paralegals ( source) ad 84,000 probation and corrections officers (source) working in the United States. That is nearly 2,000,000 people in the United States working in an industry which relies on crime to happen.

If we were ever to "win" the War on Drugs, 25% of these people, almost 500,000, would be out of a job. If that were the case, politicians who really fought to end the drug problem in the United States would lose the support of police groups across the country and would themselves be out of a job. That seems to me like a pretty good incentive to perpetuate the drug problem in America, rather than end it.

Just a little food for thought.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

The correct answer is far simpler: People like to get [censored] up. Always have, always will.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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The correct answer is far simpler: People like to get [censored] up. Always have, always will.

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Well that is certainly true, but can't you see why the gov't has a vested interest in never doing anything about it?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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The correct answer is far simpler: People like to get [censored] up. Always have, always will.

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Well that is certainly true, but can't you see why the gov't has a vested interest in never doing anything about it?

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Nah, no progress is made in the war in drugs because "winning" is impossible. Too many people want them on the demand side, and there's too much money to be made on the supply side. If, by some miracle, drugs were completely irradicated, the politicians would just find a new issue and declare "war".

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

That and people feel good about themselves thinking that the government is doing something about it.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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The correct answer is far simpler: People like to get [censored] up. Always have, always will.

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Well that is certainly true, but can't you see why the gov't has a vested interest in never doing anything about it?

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The only thing they will do is make more laws and restrictions that will require more lawyers, prison guards etc.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Without agreeing or disagreeing with your conclusion, I think it's a stretch to equate the 24.7% and the 500,000. Just because there are 25% fewer criminals (and, I assume, 25% fewer crimes being prosecuted, policed, etc.) does not mean 25% of the workers in this field (all of the occupations you listed) would no longer be needed.

That didn't come out quite how I want it, but I can try to elaborate if you want. Feel free to try to convince me otherwise too.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Duck!!!



http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/371/ka5060ei.jpg

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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The correct answer is far simpler: People like to get [censored] up. Always have, always will.

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This is actually pretty good. When people demand something, the market will always provide it, whether legally or illegally.

Note that in Soviet Russia, non-government rationing of food was illegal. Because the command economy was so woefully inefficient, the "mafia" stepped in and supplied food to people who demanded it (of course, this was much more difficult under Stalin with his policy of Dekulakization [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]). This proves that even under the most oppressive of conditions, what is demanded will be supplied.

Anyway, because of this undeniable truth, it is not even a question as to whether the war on drugs is a waste of money. The problem posed by PoBoy, though, is of serious concern, as are all matters regarding public choice.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

What money am I, the taxpayer, making?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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That seems to me like a pretty good incentive to perpetuate the drug problem in America, rather than end it.


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The question then, is are you doing your part?.
I'm doing mine.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Unlike the rest of these posters, I understand your point Poboy. They can't get past the supply and demand arguement.

These career narcs and the legislators that support them have their livelyhoods at stake. They are mercenaries in a war against their own people.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

By that logic, we could help solve unemployment by paying people to dig ditches and fill them up.

Drug illegalization HURTS the economy. Legalize, and you create new jobs (watch for "big marijuana"), you SUBSTANTIALLY lower the prices, giving people more money to spend on other things (thus creating demand for more jobs), and you keep money in the country, because Pablo Escabar clones can't exist anymore, AND we're not paying as much to keep so many prisoners alive.

Seems +EV to me.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

its -EV if you are a police officer, prison guard, Justice Department lawyer or DEA administrator. They have powerful friends in Washington.

The under cover narcs make very good money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulia,_Texas
The state attorney general awarded Tom Coleman a prize for being "Lawman of the Year."

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Yeah, some people get hurt, but for the economy, it's better overall. The narcs aren't providing a useful service for the people. They're just wasting tax dollars.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

You embolden the drug dealers when you criticize the war on drugs. The only reason we are losing the war is because of criticism of its efforts.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Don't you understand? This criticism will show that we are divided against drugs when we should be united! Only then will the drug dealers and cartels take us seriously...

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

What does this have to do with anything?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

all lawyers and paralegals rely on crime happening?

what about patent, copyright, trademark, admiralty, labor, contract, bankruptcy, family, products liability, civil rights, insurance, international, real estate, corporate, administrative, torts, healthcare, human rights, securities, tax, environmental, constitutional, education, etc. law?

you really think 25% of the legal profession devotes itself to drugs? you're nuts.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

See PoBoy? The lawyers know you are on to them and are already fighting back with misinformation.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

You're still missing the biggest reason of all :

Drug profits are BIG, BIG, BIG money.

It was no accident that Oliver North and his crowd used drug money to fund their little side-projects (Contras, etc) -- it's hard to trace, there's TONS of it, and as long as they can keep the fundies whipped up it'll always keep coming.

It's a very, very useful funding source for the "off the books" crowd.


q/q

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

The reason why the war on drugs will never be won is that Chuck Noris refuses to fight it.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

If Heroin, Acid, Mushrooms, Pot, Crystal Meth, PCP, Crack, Cocaine, Opium, Mescaline, and every kind of painkiller/pill could be bought for super cheap at your local 7-11 by anyone of any age (pure free market), would addictions to these drugs increase or decrease? Low paying agricultural jobs are added and some executives get super rich. Is this better or worse for the economy?

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Legalize, and you create new jobs

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You could also create new jobs by legalizing murder for hire.

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we're not paying as much to keep so many prisoners alive.

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This doesnt add to your argument, because likewise we could legalize drunk driving and not have to pay so much money to officers and lawyers and judges and jails that punish drunk drivers. That doesnt mean we should legalize drunk driving.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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bought for super cheap at your local 7-11 by anyone of any age

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Pure strawman.

Nobody anywhere is advocating this.

Drugs and their distribution can certainly be properly regulated without being treated like candy. The notion that we have to have full-scale prohibition or total non-regulation is absurd on its face.


q/q

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

What would be the purpose in regulating crystal meth?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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If Heroin, Acid, Mushrooms, Pot, Crystal Meth, PCP, Crack, Cocaine, Opium, Mescaline, and every kind of painkiller/pill could be bought for super cheap at your local 7-11 by anyone of any age (pure free market), would addictions to these drugs increase or decrease? Low paying agricultural jobs are added and some executives get super rich. Is this better or worse for the economy?

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If people want to do drugs, they will do them regardless of the presence of state intervention. The reason people don’t do drugs is because they are aware of the adverse effects, not for fear of the law. Conversely, some people DO choose to do drugs and they should have every right to do so. These people aren’t just going to ‘give up’ just because the state illegalized them, they will pursue them regardless. This has been proven by the black markets. The legalization of drugs may increase addiction somewhat, not as much as you think though.

Regarding your second point on the economy, the positive effects on the economy would not only lie in the addition of a new industry, but the ceasing of one of the most wasteful of the government’s many inefficient campaigns.


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Legalize, and you create new jobs

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You could also create new jobs by legalizing murder for hire.

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Poor example. One is providing a product which people demand, the other is promoting the illegal use of force.

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we're not paying as much to keep so many prisoners alive.

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This doesn’t add to your argument, because likewise we could legalize drunk driving and not have to pay so much money to officers and lawyers and judges and jails that punish drunk drivers. That doesn’t mean we should legalize drunk driving.

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Again, different things. Drunk drivers hurt other people, against their will. Drug dealers are technically hurting other people, but it consensual. Likewise, the person taking the drugs owns his body, therefore he chooses what to do with it.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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What would be the purpose in regulating crystal meth?

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(1) to make it impossible for a dealer/pusher to earn a profit on it, thereby destroying their financial incentive to spread the drug.

(2) to reduce the harm/risk to the user

(3) to reduce the harm/risk to the general population


q/q

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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(1) to make it impossible for a dealer/pusher to earn a profit on it, thereby destroying their financial incentive to spread the drug.

(2) to reduce the harm/risk to the user

(3) to reduce the harm/risk to the general population


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Couldnt you also do this by making crystal meth illegal and assigning law enforcement agents to track down producers and dealers of it?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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(1) to make it impossible for a dealer/pusher to earn a profit on it, thereby destroying their financial incentive to spread the drug.

(2) to reduce the harm/risk to the user

(3) to reduce the harm/risk to the general population


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Couldnt you also do this by making crystal meth illegal and assigning law enforcement agents to track down producers and dealers of it?

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No.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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(1) to make it impossible for a dealer/pusher to earn a profit on it, thereby destroying their financial incentive to spread the drug.

(2) to reduce the harm/risk to the user

(3) to reduce the harm/risk to the general population


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Couldnt you also do this by making crystal meth illegal and assigning law enforcement agents to track down producers and dealers of it?

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Isn't crystal meth illegal now? Hasn't law enforcement been doing just that for decades now?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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(1) to make it impossible for a dealer/pusher to earn a profit on it, thereby destroying their financial incentive to spread the drug.

(2) to reduce the harm/risk to the user

(3) to reduce the harm/risk to the general population


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Couldnt you also do this by making crystal meth illegal and assigning law enforcement agents to track down producers and dealers of it?

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Clearly, you can't.

Restricting the supply drives up the price and hence the profit. Dealers are making FAR more under prohibition than they would be if the state came in to undercut them and put them out of business (in which case, they'd make ZERO).

The trade is currently driven underground and the product is unregulated, which also exposes all involved to both physical and medical risks which are preventable -- even allowing for the harm done by illicit substances themselves. It also puts police and the community at far greater risk than would otherwise be the case.

Lastly, by putting drug use into regulated and legal situations, better contact between abusers and the medical community could be created, which would be a major public health benefit. By eliminating black market pricing, property crime would also be GREATLY reduced.

Think about it. This is all simply common sense stuff, once you get beyond the drug war rhetoric.


q/q

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Just imagine all the 4H and FFA shows where those proud kids would be displaying their potent cannabis and opium poppy hybrids if drugs were legalized.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Just imagine all the 4H and FFA shows where those proud kids would be displaying their potent cannabis and opium poppy hybrids if drugs were legalized.

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Just imagine a world where there are kids who are underage proudly displaying their potent drinks if alcohol was legalized. Oh wait...

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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What would be the purpose in regulating crystal meth?

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You cannot stop me or anyone else from using it. Ever. No matter how hard you try.

Let's see, you've lost and you can never win. Sounds like an excellent reason to try a different approach.

natedogg

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Rape keeps occurring despite the laws and punishment of it, and there are plenty of repeat offenders. No way to stop it before the fact. Might as well legalize it right? Because that or an even harsher punishment regime is all you got left isn't it?

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Rape keeps occurring despite the laws and punishment of it, and there are plenty of repeat offenders. No way to stop it before the fact. Might as well legalize it right?

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

Well of course you aren't counting the victims of drugs who die from same because they chose it. But his reasoning is exactly the same used by pro-abortion adovcates and there most definitely is a victim there. (But of course they don't count a semi-viable fetus who is partially delievered so that its head might be crushed as a victim by labelling it not a person.)

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

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Well of course you aren't counting the victims of drugs who die from same because they chose it.

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People die from alcohol poisoning all the time. You want that illegal too? Those hurt by OD'ing on drugs did that to themselves. Should cutting yourself be illegal?

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But his reasoning is exactly the same used by pro-abortion adovcates and there most definitely is a victim there. (But of course they don't count a semi-viable fetus who is partially delievered so that its head might be crushed as a victim by labelling it not a person.)

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Let's not turn this into an abortion thread. Suffice it to say, I think there's a victim involved in abortion as well, so that's not a good analogy either.

Re: Why the war on drugs will never be won
 

How about the victims of those who cause auto accidents while under the influence of drugs similar to those caused by driving while drunk? (And I sure hope you aren't one of those who maintain that "experienced" pot users can drive without impairment or I'm gonna call you something that will cause Cola to ban me for a few days.)