My weakness...middle pairs
 

OK, I've lurked and made comments here for just a bit, and I figure it's about time I set myself up for some abuse.

History about me--taking a small break from real cash games (lots of personal stuff going on, moving/new job), plus I think I need to study A LOT more before stepping back in.

Anyway, your thoughts on this hand--I have a pretty good idea of what it is, but let 'er rip:

Converted at PokerGeek
Absolute Limit Hold'em Ring - $0.50/$1 Stakes (9 handed)

Starting Stacks
Seat 1: Button ($18.25)
Seat 2: Small blind ($14.35)
Seat 3: Big blind (Hero) ($37.25)
Seat 4: UTG ($19.65)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($49.60)
Seat 6: MP1 ($13.25)
Seat 7: MP2 ($5.80)
Seat 8: LP ($50.60)
Seat 9: CO ($25.90)

Preflop: Hero is Big blind with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 raises, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Small blind calls, Hero calls

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Small blind checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, Small blind folds, Hero calls

Turn: (3.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls

River: (5.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls

Final Pot: $7.6

Results not shown

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

You're not giving yourself any info by calling down every street. A bet or even c/r on this flop is a better line. I c/r might even get you a free turn card. If you get re-raised, fold and move on.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

I would 3-bet preflop with 99 here. Then I lead out this flop. If he raises, I call, fold turn UI. (I would check/call picking up that OESD, fold the river.)

Edit: The way you played it, all you know is he either has an Ace, a pocket pair greater than 7, or clubs. That's kind of not enough information.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

Given the way you played this hand preflop, I'd just check/fold the flop.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

Check folding this flop is fine.

If you don't want to give it up so easily you can lead and fold to a raise.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

Preflop is fine.

Fold the flop, unless you're putting him on KQs.

Might have the odds to call the turn (I figure 10 outs with the pot laying you 4.75:1, you'll probably be able to CR the river and make up two bets).

Fold the river.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

3-bet preflop
Hand plays differently after that

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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The way you played it, all you know is he either has an Ace, a pocket pair greater than 7, or clubs. That's kind of not enough information.

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Um, he could have lots of hands and just keep betting out to pretend he hit that ace.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

If he has reasonable raising standards, I think you're an underdog on the flop. If you want to take a shot at it, take the lead so you can fold early to a raise and save some bets. I think a Kx hand will usually fold to a turn bet. I'm not sure what your river line would be if he calls the turn.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

The advice given here is too aggressive IMO, 99 is not a 3-betting hand out of the BB against a MP1 raise. You are OOP in the hand, there is no reason to bloat the pot pre flop. This is a check fold on the flop against most players.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

*grunch*
Preflop - ok
Flop - raise to find out where you are. You want to chase out lower pairs or even a weak ace here. If he reraises fold or call (just so you don't look like you can be pushed around) and fold the turn UI.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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The advice given here is too aggressive IMO, 99 is not a 3-betting hand out of the BB against a MP1 raise. You are OOP in the hand, there is no reason to bloat the pot pre flop. This is a check fold on the flop against most players.

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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The advice given here is too aggressive IMO, 99 is not a 3-betting hand out of the BB against a MP1 raise. You are OOP in the hand, there is no reason to bloat the pot pre flop. This is a check fold on the flop against most players.

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

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Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

Hate playing mid-pairs too. Almost never get a flop u really like. And if u flop overcards u´ll have to guess all the way if u´re behind or not.

But on this hand I think it´s an easy fold on the flop. U´re behind most hands MP1 can hold (if he is a typical player): AA-77, AK-AT, A9s. The only thing u can beat is KQ or maybe KJs. U have very few outs. If he is tight u can bet the flop once hoping he folds. But normally, just give up. This medium sized pot ain´t worth it.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

To close things out, MP1 was holding AQh and probably didn't even break a sweat after the flop.

Looking back, I see the flop as a fold or raise situation. Didn't have a read on MP1, but I don't see him raising with Kx, so I know I'm behind.

Turn helped a bit, giving me 8 new outs (really, only 6 new because of the heart draw).

Weak, weak, weak...and I gladly call away 2.5BB's.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

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Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.

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We're not here to regurgitate everything that's in SSHE. Also, the recommendations in SSHE are just that: recommendations. There's always a case for more or less aggressive play, depending on the situation. I don't mind pushing edges like this: we're up against weak players, and can make better decisions than most post-flop.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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I don't think that 3-betting is overly aggressive. We are definitely bloating the pot PF, but this is for value: we usually have the best hand here, and are pushing that equity edge. That's a great reason to bloat the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me where in SSHE that recomends 3-betting 99 out of the BB. This is not a button raise steal situation. How great is your equity against overcards. Your positional disadvantage in this hand makes up for the slight edge you might have preflop. The players in .50 1. are passive. You could easily be a big dog pre-flop or a slight favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not here to regurgitate everything that's in SSHE. Also, the recommendations in SSHE are just that: recommendations. There's always a case for more or less aggressive play, depending on the situation. I don't mind pushing edges like this: we're up against weak players, and can make better decisions than most post-flop.

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Yes situational. No reads were given in this post. So I would go with the standard way of playing the hand. Which is following SSHE. If we had specific reads then saying this is situational makes more sense. So you are 3-betting 99 out of the BB everytime regardless of what type player you are against.

If villain has overcards, he is not making a mistake preflop against your 99 when you 3-bet, how is this pushing your edge.

By keeping the pot small when out of position, you gain more from when the flop comes low and villain makes the mistake of chasing his overcards given the improper odds, by bloating the pot villain is correct to call after the flop with overcard. If the flop is terrible, you can just check fold.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

:grunching

If I were MP1 I would make a note of you being a calling station. What hands do you put villain on that you beat?

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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The way you played it, all you know is he either has an Ace, a pocket pair greater than 7, or clubs. That's kind of not enough information.

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Um, he could have lots of hands and just keep betting out to pretend he hit that ace.

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How many hands does villain raise from MP1 that you beat? How many hands does he raise that have you beaten?

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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Yes situational. No reads were given in this post. So I would go with the standard way of playing the hand. Which is following SSHE. If we had specific reads then saying this is situational makes more sense. So you are 3-betting 99 out of the BB everytime regardless of what type player you are against.

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Not always, but if it's a MP1 raise, and only the small blind has called, then I think that 3-betting is best. We're going to win more than 1/3 of the time. How large must the pocket pair be before you'd 3-bet it?

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If villain has overcards, he is not making a mistake preflop against your 99 when you 3-bet, how is this pushing your edge.

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This is a non-sequitur. The villain doesn't have to make a mistake for our raise to be profitable. Betting into someone, who has the odds to call, is not wrong. Your logic would mean that we ought not to bet into someone with a flush draw, since they can call profitably.

If we could see his cards, and he ours, what would the preflop action be?

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By keeping the pot small when out of position, you gain more from when the flop comes low and villain makes the mistake of chasing his overcards given the improper odds, by bloating the pot villain is correct to call after the flop with overcard. If the flop is terrible, you can just check fold.

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There's nothing wrong with this approach, but it does mean that you'll lose a pot once in a while to continuation bets. Taking the more aggressive approach is at least justifiable, and I think better.

Re: My weakness...middle pairs
 

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How large must the pocket pair be before you'd 3-bet it?

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I would 3-bet Tens, I just like to keep pots smaller when OOP. Heads up I would consider 3-betting.In other positions I would 3-bet 99 to get it Headsup. I have a 12% PFR, and I don't 3-bet 99 in the BB. So I still think this is too aggressive. You should give some respect to MP1 open raise unless he is a maniac.

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This is a non-sequitur. The villain doesn't have to make a mistake for our raise to be profitable. Betting into someone, who has the odds to call, is not wrong. Your logic would mean that we ought not to bet into someone with a flush draw, since they can call profitably.

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It is probably neutral EV to 3-bet, or call pre-flop. I am not a huge math guy, so I really don't know. I make my plays based more on position and the type of opponent I am against. Either line is fine I guess. I just prefer to play more cautiously OOP with vulnerable mid pairs. Especially against an unknown.

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If we could see his cards, and he ours, what would the preflop action be?


[/ QUOTE ] Since he had AQ it should be reraise, but we don't know what he had, he could have a bigger pair. Are we really that much of a favorite over a unknowns range that 99 should be pushed this hard preflop. I guess if we 3-bet and villain caps, this make the hand easier to play, because we will be certain we are behind villain capping range on this flop. I still prefer seeing a flop first though.