Should I finish college? (long)
 

The overwhelming response from friends and family has been to finish college. However, I feel like they don't understand the decision as well as some of you poker players probably will. I'm expecting most of you will say to finish also, but maybe I'm missing some important reasons for finishing/not finishing. Here is some background:

I'm a senior at Stern (NYU's undergrad business school). I have a little under 2 semester's worth of classes to take before I can receive my degree. I am currently a double major in finance/actuarial science. I enrolled in the fall semester this year and then dropped my classes a week through because I realized I would never go to class. My apartment in NYC is about a 15 minute subway ride or 20-30 min bus ride (NYU provides free bus transportation) to campus. The ability to schedule classes consecutively isn't guaranteed. This means I could have a class at 9 AM and then one at 5 PM. I would then either have to stay on campus or take the bus/subway back/forth and waste a lot of time.

In terms of my study habits, I am the laziest kid alive. I will probably miss a decent amount of class and will procrastinate. My typical semester involves ridiculous cramming during finals week. Luckily I am gifted enough that I can get by doing this as long as it doesn't get too extreme.

As for poker, I am not one of those people who is completely against playing 40+hrs/week. I still enjoy the game greatly and can't think of many decent paying professions that I could enjoy more. Since I dropped my fall classes, I am probably averaging 35-40hrs/week of poker. Since I have no responsibilities whatsoever, I can easily go out 3-4 nights a week and get in 35-40hrs. My social life is somewhat negatively affected by poker as instead of interacting with people during class, on campus, etc. I am now playing poker. However, I still manage to spend a good amount of time with most of my friends so the negative effect is pretty small. If I play 30 hrs/week for 50 weeks a year, I expect to make over $600k. This assumes that games won't get significantly tougher. But it also assumes that I won't improve as a player or move up in stakes. Those two should balance each other out.

As for future plans, I intend to and have started investing most of my profits in stocks and mutual funds. At some point, I would like to start some sort of business. I don't care if it's a totally new start-up or a hotel. However, I plan to continue playing poker. The business would be more of a passive investment run by someone else.

Whether or not I get a degree, I have no plans whatsoever to ever work a 9-5 job. The idea of a 9-5 job is extremely unappealing to me. I feel like I have the skill set necessary to be successful even if poker goes to hell w/o ever working a 9-5 job. The main reason right now that I am considering getting my degree is sort of a social acceptance kind of deal. I feel like there will be times in my life I may regret only being a high school graduate. Also, if I plan to start a business and need to raise money, it might be easier with a college degree. I'm really interested to hear what other benefits there are to a college degree as I am sure I am missing something.

I have qualified for PCA (Jan 4-11) and the LA Poker Classic (Feb 17-21, but smaller tournies start a month earlier). I really like playing these big tournies because it gives me a chance to travel and seems like a nice one week vacation. There's also the chance of a big score. If I don't go back to school, I anticipate I'll play in one of these every month. School starts Jan 17th so it wouldn't affect PCA but I'd have to miss classes for the LAPC and for any other big tournies I decide to play in.

If I decide to finish, my parents will pay the tuition. Also, I could drop one of my majors. I would most probably drop the actuarial science major if I do this. AcSci at Stern is an extremely demanding major because all of the classes are taken with graduate students. If I drop AcSci, I have 2 finance electives I would need for my finance major. I would also need to take business law and an ethics course that every senior has to take. Other than that, I would need 12 credits worth of electives in the arts/sciences school. These could be anything from physics to the history of baseball to german.

I'm interested to hear any input you might have.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

you go to stern. 99.9% of kids your (our) age would kill to go to stern. you have one year left. your parents will pay for it. come on man. and your parents have already paid A HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS for you to go there

this weeks sign the apocalypse is upon us?

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

sunk costs, blah blah
opportunity costs- a bunch of poker money
in the same situation i stayed because i wouldnt want to go back to school in the future
..one more semester

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

my approach is to just finish school and not worry so much about not getting a 100... i'm pretty much a perfectionist, so this is something for me. that being said, motivation is tough. i skip alot of classes and play alot of poker. i'm sure you are already dealing with these things, but they certainly don't get better senior year... even though there is less time left, you are giving up more by not playing poker

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
sunk costs, blah blah
opportunity costs- a bunch of poker money
in the same situation i stayed because i wouldnt want to go back to school in the future
..one more semester

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont think that applies as a sunk cost. and if it does, surely getting an NYU-Stern degree is worth $40k. as for opportunity cost, I'd guess Evan (junior at Stern) will make more money than him over the next 10 years if he gets a job and witelime drops out. even if he doesnt get a job, its nice to ahve a backup plan in case poker doesnt work out

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

I would not care one bit what my grades are if I decided to finish school. As one of my friends put it "C's get degrees".

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would not care one bit what my grades are if I decided to finish school. As one of my friends put it "C's get degrees".

[/ QUOTE ]


getting a 2.0 >>> dropping out

if you were a sophomore, i could see a case. but youre so close. why stop now? your degree could be really useful.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

This is the basic speech everyone has given me but it doesn't really help me. Regardless of how "pot committed" I am, or the fact that it's a great school, there would have to be some sort of tangible benefit that is GREATER than the additional income/freedom/ability to travel to tournies/etc. that I would gain from not having class.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

You think poker's going somewhere after a year?

Continue doing what you're doing. You're obviously making enough now to contemplate dropping out of college for poker, while still being able to attend classes. Why ruin a good thing? It'll only get better after you graduate.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

its not as hard as you may think to do both. just drop one of your majors, do whatever you can to get consecutive classes, and do it.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

I'd finish school mostly for the reasons Josh pointed out. If you want to be lazier and have more time to play drop AcSci.

One thing that hasn't been said yet is that it's harder than you think to just start up a business, especially if you intend it to be passive income. Here's the problem with that, you basically have resigned to bringing nothing to the table besides capital. As a 21 year old, or even a 31 year old, you will not have the most capital around and as a high school graduate without full time employment you will likely have a much harder time borrowing funds than someone with your income level "should". I'm not saying you won't be able to, just that banks will require you to jump through hoops and likely keep way more cash on hand than makes any sense from an opportunity cost perspective.

Enough on fiannce though, that's not really the point. There are lots of benefits to having a degree beyond getting a better "9-5 job". Since you are so close to being dont and your parents are willing to pay I really think you should finish.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

You need two semesters of college (both 12 credit semesters too) in order to graduate from NYU with a finance degree that your parents are willing to pay for and you're even considering not doing it?? Seems like you're a real driven guy.

Finish school, you already put in three years.

Good luck,
Matt

PS Since your posts lacks stats/info about the stakes you play no one here will be able to tell you if you're even good enough to be a poker pro. However I will warn you that GoT's goal (from some old post) for the year was 400K in poker and poker related income for this year. I think it's highly known and accepted that he's definitely one of the most skilled players/biggest earners on these forums. My point, I think your estimate of 600K is waaaaaay too optimistic to rely on.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

With all due respect, many of the things you say are incredibly naive. A degree from a highly respected institution is valuable in many, many ways that you obviously haven't considered: Employability, credit, credibility in whatever field you wind up in, etc., etc.

More concretely, if you're so sure that you can make $600k/yr in 1500 hours of play (I won't comment on how unlikely that is over an extended period of time -- oh wait, I think I just did) and that any increase in skill of other players will be offset by your advance in limits, then it would be insanity not to play 15 hours/week, make $300k/yr, get your degree, and then -- in only 12 months for god's sake -- play full time after that. And, of course, if you're not so sure then your entire plan goes out the window.

As "gifted" as you may be, any decision other than getting your degree would be a monumental lapse of judgment.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

College is the easiest funnest thing you will do in your life.

Don't cut it short.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

You want tangible benefits listed, but of course you know that the tangible benefit is that a degree is money in the bank in the employment world. But you aren't ever going to work a 9-5er so you cut that right out. That leaves the intangibles.

But I think you ought to consider for a moment, that at age (what 21 or so) you've got sixty years of living in which your life can take improbable and unforseen turns, twist, bumps and reversals. A college degree is a huge hedge against the unexepected, and two semesters...well c'mon that's not the worlds most difficult task.

As far as intangibles. There may come a time when you are running with a bunch of college educated people, either through work, because you start your own business or some other context entirely. Believe you me, its not fun in those situations to be the guy who couldn't hack college.

Ever plan on having kids? What are you gonna say when your offspring comes to you with some really ridiculous plan (not something cool like playing poker for a living) that involves them dropping out of college and throwing away their future (not to mention the money you've paid for their first few years) and you object, what's you're come back when they say, "Ah, c'mon dad...you dropped out of college to play poker!!!"

And if you can't find at least a few courses that stimulate and engage you, then either you aren't trying very hard or you a very sad person.

And among the other cool things about college (including open keg parties six nights a week in my case), it is also one of the most stimulating, interesting, engaging environments you are likely to be in ever again in your life. Which is a little sad statement about what society post college is like, but nevertheless true.

Or as one of my friends would say, "Don't be a schmuck, quit your whinning and finish what you started."

--Zetack

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

IMO, no one who is already a senior in college could be making enough money to justify dropping out. You're less than a year away from having a solid backup plan for the rest of you're life. If you were a freshman (winces) this would be a much more difficult decision.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

personally i think youre an idiot. ONE YEAR. omg. finish up. you dont have to get a job when youre done, get a degree and play poker if you want. easiest decision ever.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The overwhelming response from friends and family has been to finish college.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is because they are right.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a senior at Stern (NYU's undergrad business school). I have a little under 2 semester's worth of classes to take before I can receive my degree.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would be a fool to quit.

[ QUOTE ]
If I decide to finish, my parents will pay the tuition.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet another great reason to get your degree.

This decision is not even remotely close. Finish school and get your degree. Poker will still be around 2 semesters from now, and if it isn't then you'll be even happier you got your degree.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the basic speech everyone has given me but it doesn't really help me. Regardless of how "pot committed" I am, or the fact that it's a great school, there would have to be some sort of tangible benefit that is GREATER than the additional income/freedom/ability to travel to tournies/etc. that I would gain from not having class.

[/ QUOTE ]

clearly you want an excuse/justification to quit. just do it mang. [censored], if poker dries up there's always sucking dick for coke.

on a more serious note, if you're not enjoying college enough to want to go through your last year of it, then I'm sorry.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Hey, I'm an NYU senior. I just took level 1 actuary exam. I say you finish out school then after you graduate study for actuary exams and play poker. It will give you something else to focus on while playing and a back up plan in case you wake up and decide 52 cards just seems boring.

If you drop out you will regret it for the rest of your life. You may think "oh my grades aren't that good" blah blah blah, but honestly man, you are going to a great school and just getting a degree will help you down the road.

Graduate.

EDIT:
And FWIW I work 20 hours a week and play poker for about 10-15. + get wasted and am lazy and I will graduate. so, take my 20 hours at an office and boom, you're making 600k a year.

It sounds to me like you just don't go to class. I think if you go to class you will be fine. Also, it sounds like you just don't want to study for finals, which are in about a week. Just suck it up for like, a week. We all know 1 semester = 1 all nighter. So get away from the internet for a night and read.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Dude, quit [censored] around and go back. Who cares if you go to classes or not. Just get the piece of [censored] paper with your name on it.

I know you are a very gifted player. I know you make a lot of money doing the poker thing. You may be able to play this game for the rest of your life, and $600k might be the LEAST you ever make in a year. But wouldn't you feel better about it all, even if it is only subconsciously, with the insurance that is that piece of paper?

I think you knew what the response was going to be when you made this post. I'm sure you have thought about this a ton, and I'm also pretty sure you have your mind made up. I hope what ever choice you make will make you happy, and that your decision one way or the other was the best choice for you.

Your weak-tight friend,

Shaf

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

I know many people that have serious self image issues because of this. They could finish a university degree, but they're not really committed to it, and have found a way to make money (not necessarily poker) elsewhere in place of studies. Many of these people, NO MATTER HOW SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY OTHER WAY, are haunted by leaving school.

The choice not to follow through and finish something that you were so close to, mainly because of your own laziness, can have a posionous effect. Accomplishing something that is difficult (either because of the innate difficulty, or overcoming your own motivational shortcomings) has a way of bolstering your self image. This is true even if you have some questions about the overall value of the accomplishment.

By the way, procrastination has a way of eventually causing you to hit a ceiling in life. That may be the big issue here.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of how "pot committed" I am, or the fact that it's a great school, there would have to be some sort of tangible benefit that is GREATER than the additional income/freedom/ability to travel to tournies/etc. that I would gain from not having class.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your degree is definitely worth the opportunity cost of lost poker hours. The rest of your life will (hopefully) be a very long time. Playing an extra 10 hours of poker per week in 2006 will not have much of a positive impact on your life in 2026. Getting your degree will.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

i read your whole post. stay in school. it's one more year.

if in 6 months congress declares internet gambling illegal, you'll be glad you are still in school.

also, your parents did pay $120,000 for this, don't throw that away.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Dude, don't listen to the haters. Follow your dream, and make the mad bank!! These guys are just hoping that one more year of school will get you back off their tables.

Also, GoT's goal was only 400k because he's really lazy, a problem you obviously don't have because you play 35+ hours a week already!

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

You picked the wrong forum to try and get back-up from. Finihs college for f-cks sake.Expected value is higher.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Having watched a number of friends and clients drop out of
school because they were making freak money during
the tech boom of the late 1990's, my advice is stay the
f in school.

You'll never regret having a degree; odds favor regret
over the lack thereof.

Pick up a copy of Mackay's "Extraordinary Popular Delusions
and the Madness of Crowds."

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

I haven't read all the responses, but I can guess what most of them will say. It sounds like you are really tempted and are looking for someone to confirm your tendency to wanting to drop out. I think you are going to find (as you have already discovered) that people will site more reasons for you to finish rather than qutting with 1 more year to go.

Poker is not going anywhere, and you only have one year to go. Even if you think you can be successful without a degree and can't really see a reason at this moment to finish, you never know what future situation will cause you to regret not getting the degree if you do drop out. It's only a year out of your life. I would just suck it up and finish.

But you know yourself the best.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

You are a good friend, and I admire your skills as a poker player greatly. We have had some good times together and it's been a pleasure getting to know you.

Rather than follow what everyone else on this site has said, I'm going to switch it up a bit. You need to follow your heart. If being in school makes you miserable, then you just cannot do it.

That said, you also need to consider everything that constitutes happiness. What importance does finishing school have on your parents? Will you forever be a dissapointment in their eyes if you don't? What about extended family? Friends? What happens if in three years, after 1.2million or so in profit, you decide that you're ready to take a break and try something new. The money's great, but what are your options?

You (as well as me and many others) are super blessed to come from upper middle class families where our parents support our living situation and to some extent our schooling. This puts you in a really unique opportunity to explore your life to the fullest.

If you will only be happy at the table, then the answer is clear in my mind. If happiness combines other elements of life, then I think you need to take a step back and consider a more practical approach.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

So you "think" you can make 600k/year. How much did you make the last few years? Unless you have put up numbers of over $450k, I doubt you know you can make 600k. If your argument is I took one semester off and look how much I made, good luck.

Am I the only person who realized this.

[ QUOTE ]
If I decide to finish, my parents will pay the tuition.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I expect to make over $600k.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a total dick for not paying muchless giving your parents nice stuff.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Your a giant ass clown if you cant finish 1 more year at college. I have about a year left also and although I want to go back home(to cali from bosotn) and drop out of business school to go to culinary school, I know at this point I need to just tough it out and finish my marketing degree. Having a decent education and something to fall back on is very important(yeah duh). If I want to be a cook, I can do that later in life, cooks are always in demand. The same is true for poker, people are always going to be pissing away their money. Also, its not like you cant play poker while your in school. Esp. if your one of those actuarial guys school should be very easy for you. I was good friends with an actuarial guy my freshman year and basically the future looks bright for him and he was a total-lazy ass clown. I think its pretty silly-arrogant to no finish college to play poker. I also dont have the 100s of thousands of dollars flowing in that a lot of you guys do that may skew your perspective. but yeah, just finish school.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If I decide to finish, my parents will pay the tuition.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I expect to make over $600k.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a total dick for not paying muchless giving your parents nice stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]


who are you to pass judgments about things he does in relation to his family? you need to just keep it to yourself sometimes dude.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Are you kidding me? How is it not dick if you make so much per year that you can't help out those who helped you out? How is that private stuff? Isn't that just being nice to your parents? Or is that too private?

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a little under 2 semester's worth of classes to take before I can receive my degree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thread over. You're kidding, right?

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

I come from a really conservative traditional family where parents are supposed to support you until you have graduated and have a job. I convinced them to let me pay rent for my apartment. Money-wise, the tuition isn't a big deal for either of us. I think it makes them happy to pay for my college.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

It's your life do whatever you want. But it would be stupid to quit now. It's all about options.

How realistic is $600K/year
 

Like many others, I advised against dropping out. But just to entertain the idea, how realistic and confident are you in your estimate. Please don't take this as an attack on your ability, but your decision to drop out is such a life changing decision that it requires a high level of certainty in your estimate.

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Not only should you drop college faster than you'd drop that skank with syphilis, but you should never go back; even when you go broke. Haven't you heard...back up plans are for suckers. I mean really, when did college ever help anybody with anything?

There's always the thrilling life of municipal worker, cab driver, hit man, carpenter guy...

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I come from a really conservative traditional family where parents are supposed to support you until you have graduated and have a job. I convinced them to let me pay rent for my apartment. Money-wise, the tuition isn't a big deal for either of us. I think it makes them happy to pay for my college.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good clarification. I wish I had this before. I agree with you then. You are not a dick anymore.

Last question still didn't get answered.

Any stats on yearly progress to your guess of 600k/year?

Re: Should I finish college? (long)
 

Nah. I'm not getting into my WR/Bankroll. I'm pretty sure people can vouch for that estimate.