Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

All men are born with sin.

Either jesus was without sin and not a man.
Or jesus was with sin and not a sacrifice.

I feel like an idiot speaking of these ridiculous things.

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]
All men are born with sin.

Either jesus was without sin and not a man.
Or jesus was with sin and not a sacrifice.

I feel like an idiot speaking of these ridiculous things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only just started reading this forum so I don't know if you are Christian or not. I'll assume you aren't because of your last statement - the "ridiculous things" part.

All men are born with sin, the way I understand it, because we're a continuation of the Original Sin - whatever that means, and a subject unto itself.

Jesus, if you accept the Bible, was born without sin - through the Immaculate Conception. Which suggests the OS was sex. Again, a whole 'nuther subject.

In that sense, you could say He wasn't a "man." But, since He was God in the form of man, he was sujecting Himself to everything a man experiences. That was for the purpose of showing believers He knows what we experience on earth. To put it lightly, "Been there, done that."

He fought sin. In others and His own sinful temptations. Was he actually without sin? No one truly knows. There's the unaccounted for time in His life on earth to consider. And, if he "slipped," there don't seem to be any writings about it.

The sacrifice He made was his own life. To me, it demonstrates the pain He was willing to experience, again as a sign. I think that's what Mel Gibson was trying to illustrate in his movie.

If I was wrong about your beliefs, and you are a Christian, I see no reason at all to feel ridiculous about asking questions. We've all done it. I still do it. It's a normal/natural part of our human-ness. God gave us brains and we use them. We question. And, since He ain't always talkin' to me with a really loud and clear voice, I tend to get confused a lot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]
All men are born with sin.

Either jesus was without sin and not a man.
Or jesus was with sin and not a sacrifice.

I feel like an idiot speaking of these ridiculous things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hebrews 4:14-16
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've only just started reading this forum so I don't know if you are Christian or not. I'll assume you aren't because of your last statement - the "ridiculous things" part.


[/ QUOTE ] I am a christian, I just happen to think that I'm wrong.

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus, if you accept the Bible, was born without sin - through the Immaculate Conception. Which suggests the OS was sex. Again, a whole 'nuther subject.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please read the initial post in this thread: The Immaculate Conception

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]

Jesus, if you accept the Bible, was born without sin - through the Immaculate Conception. Which suggests the OS was sex. Again, a whole 'nuther subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, "the original and best"!

Could be a good marketing strategy "We offer the original and best sin, roll up roll up!"

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

I believe you need to look at the sacrifice of Christ with the Old Testament in mind. The sacrifice was meant to fulfill a convenant with all of humanity. In the Old Testament God tries to make the first covenant with Adam and Eve, but as we all know they fail. Next is Noah with his family, and Noah's sons fail the covenant. Then comes Abraham as a leader of a tribe (this is where circumcision comes in) This is followed by Moses and the 40,000 slaves. Afterwards is King David and his kingdom. An obvious pattern can be seen, where God makes a covenant with a married couple, family, tribe, forthy thousand slaves, and finally a kingdom...and well...each time we fail God. Clearly God needed someone who was fully human and without sin to complete the covenant with humanity. This was of course fulfilled with Jesus' sacrifice which made a covenant with the whole world (i.e. catholic church [catholic meaning universal...not the denomination]). Why did Jesus have to die the way he did? In the Old Testament it is often stated that to show someone you love them, you are willing to give and sacrifice your all for them, which Jesus clearly did for all of us (As Mel Gibson shows pretty well). The sacrifice of Jesus doesn't necessarily make sense unless you know all the details that lead up to it (and the whole Old Testament leads to Jesus). This is a very very brief explanation, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few errors (seeing as I did this off the top of my head.) Hopefully this helps you somewhat...

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

[ QUOTE ]
Poster: DougShrapnel
Subject: Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins

All men are born with sin.

Either jesus was without sin and not a man.
Or jesus was with sin and not a sacrifice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we question some of the premises? Who said all men are born with sin?

and the statements you made are not a logical argument...

all men are born with sin
jesus is a man

jesus has sin, is logical

but where do you get the sacrifice part?

Personally, i believe that Jesus didn't die. I think he let them do all they could to Him, but they couldn't kill Him. He wants us to know that, so we have the strength to stand up to those who threaten us.

Re: Jesus could not have died for our sins
 

The bible suggest that sin is like a courtroom fine that has to be paid...

but like real courtroom fines, there's a lot of wiggle room for someone else to pay it -

The idea is that Jesus did so - that God coming to earth as Man and suffering for sin is coverage for all humanity's sin...provide they accept that's what it is and believe in it....

Once you get past all the bullshit of "God won't love you unless you believe like us" and all the rhetoric of Fundementalists, there's a lot of really good [censored] in there - forgiveness in a society where even ejaculating on yourself was grounds for being stoned - etc, etc...what he preached and taught may not sound so radical, esp. today, but 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, it was pretty [censored] radical.

Come to think of it, after two thousand years "Love One Another as I (God) have Loved You" is still pretty radical - note it doesn't say love one another as they love you, but as GOD loves you...

On second mulling, that thought is still unacceptable and insane to most people in the world. Guess he was more of a lunatic then we thought.

RB