SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

Here's the setup. Full table has folded around to me in the SB. BB is VERY tight. I've seen two hands out of him in 60 hands, AA and KK. VP$IP is 7%. I'm going to admit a mistake in that I probably should have raised, not just completed, but that's not where my question comes in. It's pretty obvious I'll take this pot down, but afterward, the BB roundly criticzed me for calling his raise preflop. He went on and on about how J6s should never call the raise. Since I won, of course I didn't think much of it, but it got me to thinking, was he right?

I've gone over the hand with PokerStove and come up with my evaluation, but I don't want to be results oriented, nor do I want to color your response, so I'll refrain from posting my analysis right now. Was calling the raise of the completion the right move?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Ad Qd (one pair, queens).
Hero has 6s Js (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. </font>

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

Pokerstove isn't really all that helpful in this sort of analysis. How tight is he?

Postflop I'd really recommend checkraising the flop.

Rob

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

It's heads up sb vs bb, he's not raising you on just AA or KK. You probably have 2 live cards and are getting 3:1. Just continue if you pair something or hit a draw etc... If you fold here, your inviting him to do that again. I think your mistake was post flop. You should have bet into him. Your bet could mean a lot of things, it could mean top pair trying to protect ur hand, a high spade that your willing to semi-bluff at. You need his money on the flop now because the 4th spade will kill your action. If the fourth spade comes he will play correctly against you. He will call or probably raise when he hits his flush because it will be higher then yours probably and will fold thinking that kid got lucky again and hit his flush draw. Now, he may raise you on the flop and then you can 3 bet him. You got lucky that no spade hit the turn so you could check raise him with the flush. Sure you won an extra small bet but your going to lose a big bet when the spade comes and maybe only win his bet on the flop if a 4th spade does hit the turn (check, bet, call... check, check.... bet, fold)

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

Pokerstove is more useful than you might think. I'll provide some numbers later.

He's VERY tight. Like I mentioned above, VP$IP is 7%. PT is marking him TPA after 60 hands.

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

many good players will raise any 2 in BB's spot preflop. waiting to checkraise the turn with a made J-high flush is absolutely horrible too.

pokerstove has ~nothing to do with choosing to play this hand preflop and out of position. if he is too tight, raise..

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove is more useful than you might think. I'll provide some numbers later.

He's VERY tight. Like I mentioned above, VP$IP is 7%. PT is marking him TPA after 60 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure you're mis-using the technical tools available to you. pokerstove is about hot/cold equity without regard to postflop play. it can be useful in limit, but only as a crutch for further analysis.

at the same time, 60 hand reads of vp$ip are highly unreliable and the way you are using them is terrible. your opponent could be 20/15 or 12/6, and you won't be able to tell from 60 hands, yet youre making oneway assumptions that will cost you bets.

what is really relevant is how BB will defend an SB open-raise preflop and postflop (specifically on the flop). you can't know this, although the information you have supports a raise.

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstove is more useful than you might think. I'll provide some numbers later.

He's VERY tight. Like I mentioned above, VP$IP is 7%. PT is marking him TPA after 60 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say pokerstove isn't useful, I said it wasn't useful in this situation. The reason is because you're basing your hand's strength on all-in equity but the vast majority of the time you will be folding the flop, which means you won't be fully realizing that equity. For example, stove will be able to credit you with a 29% chance of winning on a 5c7sKc flop, but you aren't going to check-call that flop, are you?

Rob

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

Yeah pokerstove can't do anything with regards to analysis of the preflop play.

But you probably should raise preflop and, since you didn't, checkraise the flop.

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

ooooook

(1) if you don't want to color results, don't post results. even in white.

(2) i don't have much of an issue with the complete. in general. except that you should be able to steal this tighty's blind every. single. time. around.

with anything. and you can fold easily when he plays back. great situation.

anyway...

(3) not betting/raising this flop is teh suck. i'd prefer a c/r because it looks like you're trying to represent a flush draw but don't necessarily have it. but if you're worried about it getting checked through, or, you think he'll raise it again pretty much always, lead it.

Re: SB vs. BB - Marginal Hand Vs. Tight BB
 

[ QUOTE ]
ooooook

(1) if you don't want to color results, don't post results. even in white.

(2) i don't have much of an issue with the complete. in general. except that you should be able to steal this tighty's blind every. single. time. around.

with anything. and you can fold easily when he plays back. great situation.

anyway...



[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you don't mean that if hero raises preflop and BB comes back with a 3-bet that hero should fold immediately without seeing the flop.

I agree that there is no question about the pf raise considering BB's stats.