worst hand ever
 

both opponents are TAGgy with PFR's over 20 (played this a few days ago but i think both were around 35/22 or so)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (12.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks.

River: (12.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds

Re: worst hand ever
 

i'd just like to know if preflop is your standard play.

Re: worst hand ever
 

Yuck. This is a horribly played hand. Fold preflop, turn ok, river you gotta call here with the fourth nuts, getting over 16-1.

Re: worst hand ever
 

why do you gotta?

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i'd just like to know if preflop is your standard play.

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id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds (granted not much better since i will sometimes have to call 4 bets total, while on the button i will less often have to call 3 total)

Re: worst hand ever
 

Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

Re: worst hand ever
 

Because your expected value of calling is &gt; than the expected value of folding. So you are right you can fold if you hate money.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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Yuck. This is a horribly played hand. Fold preflop, turn ok, river you gotta call here with the fourth nuts, getting over 16-1.

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i think i rarely play a hand "horribly" and if i do i wouldnt bother posting it because i know its horrible. i misplay plenty but they are usually not horrible. that said, maybe you should be more open minded

Re: worst hand ever
 

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Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

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the title is not "worst played hand ever" fyi

it is worse hand ever since i called 4 bets preflop and 4 on the flop only to find out my hand is no good

Re: worst hand ever
 

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Because your expected value of calling is &gt; than the expected value of folding. So you are right you can fold if you hate money.

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what do i beat

Re: worst hand ever
 

i would've done hand ranges, but since you threw out "you can fold if you hate money" i think the burden is on you now.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I agree you although I have never played with you I am sure you are a very solid player from your previous posts. You know you made some mistakes in this hand. I am just pointing them out to you since you posted this hand. I also think the biggest on is preflop.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree you although I have never played with you I am sure you are a very solid player from your previous posts. You know you made some mistakes in this hand. I am just pointing them out to you since you posted this hand. I also think the biggest on is preflop.

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i dont think i made any mistakes. preflop is borderline though J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] happens to be my favorite hand. i probably wouldve made the call anyway though

Re: worst hand ever
 

Can you explain preflop to me (no sarcasm). I really don't understand how this can be a call. You are up against two very solid opponents.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
what do i beat

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T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], a drunk, or a misclick. Still, seems like a very tough but good fold.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds

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I don't think this logic works so good because it looks at pot odds and position but ignores information about the strength of hands you are against.

/mc

Re: worst hand ever
 

fine, i'll do hand ranges.

CO has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. 2 combos, they beat you. maybe he'd bet the turn with QT actually... but no worse hands other than a misclick play like this really.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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Can you explain preflop to me (no sarcasm). I really don't understand how this can be a call. You are up against two very solid opponents.

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they are not very solid. i had no specific read on the CO, but i had one on MP. he is my friend's friend from school that taught him to play a few years ago. i occasionally see him at these games. im assuming hes using this screenname again because he made a rakeback account. anyway he plays pretty dumb. he plays kinda tight (i actually think he is around 41/19 come to think of it) but he autobets draws headsup, he will pump his draws, he tries some dumb FPS plays (as evidenced by him having top set this hand), etc

this would be a lot better call against two bad players. as i said i was heavily influenced by it being my favorite hand

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, this hand really fits the title. I'm still laughing.

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the title is not "worst played hand ever" fyi

it is worse hand ever since i called 4 bets preflop and 4 on the flop only to find out my hand is no good

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that. It was just the process of me reading the title and wondering what hand would deserve that, then I read the hand and just started laughing.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I think ATs is much more likely than QTs. Anyways there still has to be some bluffing %. I admit that it is small but bluffs, misclicks, and misreading the board does happen often enough to merit a call in my opinion.

Re: worst hand ever
 

Misclicks and misreading yes, but in a pot this well protected only a maniac will bluff, and a maniac wouldn't have checked through the turn.

Re: worst hand ever
 

duh, ATs. yeah QTs isn't too likely, but i guess it's possible. definitely more likely than a misclick. a TAG bluffs here never, i don't know that hoping he misclicks 6% of the time on the river is profitable.

Re: worst hand ever
 

[ QUOTE ]
fine, i'll do hand ranges.

CO has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. 2 combos, they beat you. maybe he'd bet the turn with QT actually... but no worse hands other than a misclick play like this really.

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i think KTd is remotely possible, as it K8d. he mightve decided that his K was no good and taken his free card. as i said, unlikely. ATd is also possible btw, as is A8d

i was not going to say this until the thread was dying, but i did not bet-fold. i bet because i was 10-tabling at that instant and it just came naturally. i felt like an idiot for betting, and i couldnt bring myself to folding. at the time i thought i shouldve check-called. when i looked at the hand again today i thought that maybe bet-folding would be better, and i posted it as if thats what i did

Re: worst hand ever
 

Well since everyone seems to disagree with me I admit that there is a chance I am wrong but I feel like the pot size merits a call. Also what about meta game implications. I play on prima where I play 1000's of hands against the same opponents and I would not want them knowing I was folding in this situation.

PS is your 2+2 hand the same as on prima wheelz?

Re: worst hand ever
 

i call the river raise even if i 'knew' i was beat. pot is grande and we have a very good hand. for peace of mind, i'd have to know.

Re: worst hand ever
 

There's just no way the CO plays anything but a better flush this way.

I fold this preflop and don't feel bad about it, but you rule and I don't, so rock on. I do feel like the reason you had to fold on the river is one of the reasons why the world doesn't end if you lay this down preflop.

Re: worst hand ever
 

+21, yeah.

Re: worst hand ever
 

Fold is expert, but I wouldn't mind checking the river and seeing if it comes back 1 or 2 bets.

Re: worst hand ever
 

yeah i like bet-fold better, just because i think you can fold to a raise. maybe he did get scared on the turn or misclicked or something... and i think MP is more likely to call your river stab after a checked through turn than overcall after the flush hits. he's clearly got some piece of this.

actually probably pretty close either way.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I actually don't think this is very bad at all. Preflop call is a bit loose, but may be good anyway. If not, it is only slightly -EV, and I don't think people should get caught up over it. The rest of the hand seems pretty straightfoward to me. The only adjustment I think you could possibly make is maybe betting the flop. It seems this might disguise your hand, so that things could play out differently. Having to play the flop as you did (and will normally have to do), makes your hand blatantly obvious to your opponents. One of the goals of poker is to make your opponents play differently from how they would if they knew your cards, so I think a flop bet disguises your hand somewhat well, while not being all that -EV on the current street.

Re: worst hand ever
 

"id cold call 2 on the button after a light raise and a call so i figure i can call 2 more here since i have worse position but better pot odds (granted not much better since i will sometimes have to call 4 bets total, while on the button i will less often have to call 3 total)"

Maybe you're right that position and pot odds cancel out, but I doubt it here, especially since you're right, that you will be facing a cap more often.

Anyways, I really hesitate to post this, because I can't imagine you overlooked such a crucial piece of information, but the fact that a threebet is much stronger than an openraise makes this a pretty clear preflop fold, IMO. Even guys with 22 PFR aren't getting out of hand with threebetting, es pecially when we're not even dealing with a button, small blind situation.

-Michael

Re: worst hand ever
 

i really dont like the preflop call but i agree that its reasonable to call 2 after a light raiser and a coldcaller when in position. that is a much different situation however because you are not liable to facing a cap. by calling 2 in the BB youre basically asking a laggy opponent to cap it up for you so that he can split your value with the other player.

i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are. saving bets is in your genes.

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Check calling seems like you are often missing quite a few bets. Your hand screams flush draw, so your best hand could easily be checked behind.

As for the bet/fold line... CO's hand also seems like a flush draw, and a better one at that. Also, he will know that you are on the flush draw, as that is really the only thing you could be on. If he is a pretty smart player, I think he knows that you might fold to a raise, as you would be thinking that your flush draw is no good. He could do this with a strong hand that he thinks he is ahead of the other player, but behind you. I dunno how thinking most players get, so I think against a regular guy, a fold isn't losing all that much money, if any.

Re: worst hand ever
 

I would fold PF for reasons that have been stated but I like your postflop play.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i call the river raise even if i 'knew' i was beat. pot is grande and we have a very good hand. for peace of mind, i'd have to know.

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My point exactly...why put so much money in the pot just to make a bad bet/fold at the end. If you're sure, then at most check/call... its the same 1 bet. I just think this is one of those wasted "expert folds" that yes, make us feel like experts most of the time, yet retarded when they show overplayed trips even once in 10 times.

2 or 3 of these in a night and I'd feel like pulling my hair out.

Re: worst hand ever
 

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i cant make sense out of a bet/fold on this river. checkcalling is better than bet fold. id also call the raise because im not as trusting as you are.

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i dont think it goes check bet raise to me that often. that is the only real reason to check. by bet-folding, i am folding the best hand almost never so im not giving up much. but more often than that he capped the flop with a pair and checked the turn to avoid being checkraised. i see players with middle pair, or in this case maybe K9s (not diamonds) or QQ, and i might get some value from betting


[ QUOTE ]
saving bets is in your genes

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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

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J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] happens to be my favorite hand.

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omg we have so much in common. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: worst hand ever
 

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I would fold PF for reasons that have been stated but I like your postflop play.

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if:
1. CO raised, button 3-bet (same players)
2. 50/20 raised in MP, 60/25 3-bet in the CO

would the call be ok?

Re: worst hand ever
 

i don't think you can call checking behind on the turn with a set overplaying it.

Re: worst hand ever
 

Hmm, honestly I'm not sure. I think they are better situations because there is less danger of facing an overpair but also somewhat worse because it will be capped more often behind you. I like the second scenario better because even though the PFR of the donks isn't much higher they have much worse hands on average than the tags since they will randomly be raising junk when bored. Also your implied odds will be much better since they're so likely to spew postflop.

So I think my SOP would be to fold in 1.) and call in 2.) but I could be convinced to do otherwise if someone makes a good case.