Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

I've been studying SSHE as usual but am having a lot of trouble because one of the major concepts, protecting your hand, just doesn't seem to apply at all in the super loose games at Fortune (.5/1 full ring). Examples:

EDITED

Postflop example:

Say I have AKo and 7-8 people see the flop (this is normal of course, regardless of how I bet preflop). The flop is K75 rainbow. A player in early position bets. Now supposedly again I am supposed to raise to knock out weak draws and strongly improve my chances of winning. But of course again this is a loose game, so even when I raise everyone just cold calls again, with, well, whatever the hell they have. Because hey they're just here to have fun anyway.

Again, what do I do in this kind of situation? I might actually be losing money because I'm raising but the pot remains multiway, so I become quite a bit more likely to be outdrawn.

SSHE says little about these games. HPFAF says something to the effect of calling more often with big hands preflop, and raising more to exploit mistakes postflop with big hands, but I don't see how that's very helpful advice. I also am one one hell of a downswing and this seems to be a predominant cause of that lately (protecting my hand as I should, but everyone calls anyway, and I get outdrawn on the turn or river).

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

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However in my case, raising AA does nothing at all. Just about everyone that would have bet (which is about everyone as well) cold calls with just about anything outside of 72o. So how the hell am I supposed to play in situations like this?

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I stopped reading there, "AA" and "Protection" don't belong together when speaking about PF.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

(Disclosure: Didn't read the full post... just skimmed.)

What happens in these situations in you win the pots less often, but they'll be bigger, and you'll still be winning more often than someone who plays worse hands. Suppose there are 8 people in a pot with you. We say that 1/8 or 12.5% of the pot is yours - that's your equity in that pot. With a hand like AK and a board of K83, you certainly won't win every time, but you'll win a lot more than 12.5% of the time.

If you can't protect, you just have to bet/raise for value. It's frustrating to not win when you have the best hand, but you have to think in the long run. If you get yourself in enough of those same situations, in the long run you'll make out way ahead.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

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However in my case, raising AA does nothing at all. Just about everyone that would have bet (which is about everyone as well) cold calls with just about anything outside of 72o. So how the hell am I supposed to play in situations like this?

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As often and as many tables as possible, that's how. It sounds like you really haven't understood SSH if you think that you raise with AA to thin out the field. Go to the preflop Q&A at the back, and one of the exact questions is "Why do we raise with premium hands preflop?" The answer is not "To thin the field" but rather "To put money into the pot with the best hand." When you raise preflop with AA, you *want* people to call, or even reraise. It's understandably frustrating to suffer suckouts and bad beats, but while they happen a lot, they don't always happen. AA will win less often against a field of 6 than a field of 2, but your overall profit will be greater the more donators you get.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

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However in my case, raising AA does nothing at all. Just about everyone that would have bet (which is about everyone as well) cold calls with just about anything outside of 72o. So how the hell am I supposed to play in situations like this?

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I stopped reading there, "AA" and "Protection" don't belong together when speaking about PF.

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I was speaking a bit more generally, I know he uses this idea in the postflop section, but the concept still applies.

i'm going to edit my post just to focus on the postflop.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

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The purpose of raising AA, besides your pot equity, is to knock out weak hands with possible draws, since AA does better short-handed than multiway, correct?

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AA works well in both situations; even if the full table goes with you to the flop, you are still 1:8 to flop a set.

EDIT - this is not to say you are hopeless if you are UI, you still probably have the best hand on most non-ace flops.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

Very quickly.

AA 1 opponent wins ~85% of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
You raise. He calls.
.85*4bets = 3.4bets. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

AA against 9 opponents wins ~31% of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
You raise. 9 calls.
.31*20bets = 6.1bets. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

You don't want to knock anyone out. You want everyone in for the maximum number of bets.

You'll win less often but you'll win more when you do.

EDIT: Every hand is a drawing hand against AA Preflop. There's not too many flops that change this fact. It's not until the Turn and River that UI AA really starts to lose big value. You just have to learn when to let it go (something I struggle with every day).

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

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However in my case, raising AA does nothing at all. Just about everyone that would have bet (which is about everyone as well) cold calls with just about anything outside of 72o. So how the hell am I supposed to play in situations like this?

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As often and as many tables as possible, that's how. It sounds like you really haven't understood SSH if you think that you raise with AA to thin out the field. Go to the preflop Q&A at the back, and one of the exact questions is "Why do we raise with premium hands preflop?" The answer is not "To thin the field" but rather "To put money into the pot with the best hand." When you raise preflop with AA, you *want* people to call, or even reraise. It's understandably frustrating to suffer suckouts and bad beats, but while they happen a lot, they don't always happen. AA will win less often against a field of 6 than a field of 2, but your overall profit will be greater the more donators you get.

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Well, it still does thin the field though doesn't it? I mean with opponents who aren't maniacs. And AA does do better short-handed than multiway, I'd imagine.

Anyway, about the postflop example: With say 7-8 people seeing the flop and only a few less going to showdown, how often do you really think I'll win? Anyone with a K will stay in looking to suck out two pair, anyone with even a backdoor draw will stay too. A shitload of cards can hurt me.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

Then wouldn't I not want to raise AA if I expect some behind me to fold? This is what HPFAP seems to imply, that I should wait until the flop or later to raise since that's more profitable.

Re: Loose games when you can almost never protect your hand
 

ok, could you address my postflop example?