Getting Value from Aces
 

PP 109. Not a particularly interesting hand perhaps, but I always seem to get this wrong. Player 10 has built his stack by calling raises in position and playing well to extract chips from his opponent's premium hand (or ditching if he misses). Would you call or raise here? If you raise how much?

Seat 1: Player 1 (4695)
Seat 2: Player 2 (730)
Seat 3: Player 3 (1312)
Seat 4: Player 4 (3300)
Seat 6: Player 6 (2558)
Seat 7: Player 7 (1170)
Seat 8: HERO (5036)
Seat 9: Player 9 (1470)
Seat 10: Player 10 (5748)
Player 2 posts small blind (50)
Player 3 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ]
Player 4 folds.
Player 6 folds.
Player 7 folds.
HERO raises (250) to 250
Player 9 folds.
Player 10 calls (250)
Player 1 folds.
Player 2 raises (680) to 730
Player 2 is all-In.
Player 3 folds.
HERO ????

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Smooth call PF.

Check raise flop.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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Smooth call PF.

Check raise flop.

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I think this is a pretty solid line, but I might bet out on a draw-heavy board.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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Smooth call PF.

Check raise flop.

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I think this is a pretty solid line, but I might bet out on a draw-heavy board.

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Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

I think smooth-call preflop, check-raise flop is a pretty silly line, personally. What makes you think he's going to auto-bluff into a dry side pot? Unless you think you can trap him post flop......which is tougher than it sounds when he knows where he's at, but you don't, he has position, and there is no side pot...or that he'll put in a reraise preflop if you smooth call...I'd put in a reraise. No need to get tricky here.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

If Hero reraises preflop, Villain might fold and we would miss out on the additional t500 if calls shorty's all-in. It also allows villain a chance to reraise to isolate Hero out.

Checking raising the flop can be tricky but we're looking to maiximize value from our hand, so let's gamble that Villain thinks we missed the flop and let him value bet his hand for the main pot.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

If you smooth call pre-flop, Villain is not making a mistake by calling along with you. That means the only reason to smooth call pre-flop is if you think you can convince Villain to make a bigger mistake later, or if you think he'll re-raise to push you out.

As others have pointed out, he's not likely to bluff into a dry sidepot, and he knows you aren't either. In my opinion, he'll be more willing to put money into the pot now than later.

Plus, you know you're ahead now, and especially since you describe this guy as trappy, it will be hard for you to be sure about that later. With stacks as deep as yours and Villain's, your objective should not be to squeeze an extra 500 out of whatever two cards he may be holding right now. You need to build a pot now and hope that Villain has a hand big enough to stand up to some pre-flop action and make a second-best hand on the flop. If you sometimes fold out 66, that's okay- you probably were either going to win his 500 and nothing more or lose your stack to his set. If Villain has something like KQ or TT, you are in good position to win a big pot.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

I don't like just cold calling because you're only getting more chips here if a) you're beat or b) he has like KQ and it's a K high flop due to the all in player

Pushing seems a little drastic and I can't see him calling it. I'd reraise though, maybe 2000-2200 range and hope he wants to see a flop.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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If you smooth call pre-flop, Villain is not making a mistake by calling along with you. That means the only reason to smooth call pre-flop is if you think you can convince Villain to make a bigger mistake later, or if you think he'll re-raise to push you out.



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this is incorrect. the other reason to smoothe call preflop is that you can get player 10 to pony up another 480 (thus increasing the size of the main pot), whereas he may fold to a raise. Even if you lead out postflop and player 10 folds, you now have (at the very least) the extra 480 in the pot.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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If you smooth call pre-flop, Villain is not making a mistake by calling along with you. That means the only reason to smooth call pre-flop is if you think you can convince Villain to make a bigger mistake later, or if you think he'll re-raise to push you out.



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this is incorrect. the other reason to smoothe call preflop is that you can get player 10 to pony up another 480 (thus increasing the size of the main pot), whereas he may fold to a raise. Even if you lead out postflop and player 10 folds, you now have (at the very least) the extra 480 in the pot.

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This is incorrect. When he calls the extra 480, if he's getting correct odds to call and will only put money in the pot if he hits two pair or better then you don't want him to call. For example, if he has something like 22-88, just calling is probably a huge mistake. You get stacked if he hits a set and get nothing more if he misses. Since he's getting correct odds to call, you don't want him to.

That said, against many people calling is probably good, because they'll put more money in the pot when they flop a hand like top pair.

Steve

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

your kidding right?

we are playing scared with pocket A's?

we don't want a caller?

i've been playing poker wrong all these years?

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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your kidding right?

we are playing scared with pocket A's?

we don't want a caller?

i've been playing poker wrong all these years?

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I didn't say we don't want a call at all, I said we want Villain to make a larger call or no call at all. Villain's range here is fairly wide and contains many hands that will not put more money in the pot after the flop unless Hero is beat. It also contains many hands like TT or KQ that, under the right circumstances, could pay Hero off big. If we smooth call, we have no idea which of those hands he has.

Smooth calling may induce him to make an error with a hand like KT on a T-high flop, but if the board comes KT5, Hero may very well be the one to make a costly mistake.

Then there are hands like small pairs that he would almost certainly ditch to a raise pre-flop but would call behind with if Hero smooth calls. There are the hands we need to charge to draw, because once Hero bets the flop, they are not putting in another penny unless they have Hero beat. Against these hands, we win 500 or lose 5000. If we make it 1000 more to call, Villain no longer has the right implied odds to call with this hand, and if he calls anyway, he has made an error in our favor. Now Hero can afford to pay him off when he flops a set, because he won't do it nearly often enough.

There are also hands like KQ that may find a fold if Hero smooth calls and then three-bets or check-raises a Q-high flop. If Hero juices the pot before the flop, KQ may well stick around anyway, and then will have a much harder time getting away from top pair.

Raising AA is not playing scared, it is building a pot in order to maximize profit and minimize reverse implied odds.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

stevepa posted this:

"This is incorrect. When he calls the extra 480, if he's getting correct odds to call and will only put money in the pot if he hits two pair or better then you don't want him to call. For example, if he has something like 22-88, just calling is probably a huge mistake. You get stacked if he hits a set and get nothing more if he misses. Since he's getting correct odds to call, you don't want him to."

just calling is a huge mistake with 22-88 (all of which are 2 outers)???????????? get nothing more if he misses???? he ponied up the extra 480, correct?

foucalt, i can see an argument for getting player 10 to donate preflop. but their is no guarantee that he is going to call a reraise and a re-reraise. I want at a minimum his 480 going into the pot. Isnt the OP's title "getting value..."? This is pretty basic stuff here if we are talking about betting/playing for value.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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just calling is a huge mistake with 22-88 (all of which are 2 outers)???????????? get nothing more if he misses???? he ponied up the extra 480, correct?

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He is putting 480 into a pot 1710, so getting about 3.5:1 on an 8.5:1 shot. However, when he makes a set, he will get a big chunk, if not all, of Hero's stack. So with the implied odds he is getting, this is in fact a much more profitable situation for a Villain holding 33 than for a Hero holding AA.
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foucalt, i can see an argument for getting player 10 to donate preflop. but their is no guarantee that he is going to call a reraise and a re-reraise. I want at a minimum his 480 going into the pot. Isnt the OP's title "getting value..."? This is pretty basic stuff here if we are talking about betting/playing for value.

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480 is chump change. I want Villain's stack, and I want to protect my stack. You are correct that there are hands he will fold to Hero's raise, but most of those are hands that would be getting close to the correct expressed odds and the correct implied odds if we don't raise. Raising also maximizes value against hands that will call and then get it in with top pair on the flop, as I explained before.

You are thinking about this the wrong way. Your goal is not to get little bits of money in the pot no matter what. Your goal is to induce mistakes by your opponent and avoid making mistakes of your own. Raising is the best way to do that.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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480 is chump change.

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480 is 10% of my stack, plus what is already in the pot. How can you think accumulating chips is bad? A reraise most likely induces a fold.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

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Are you one of those players who min-raises Aces?

Seriously, I wrote a pretty long post trying to explain this to you, and you ignore all of my arguments and respond, basically, with "nuh-uh"?

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

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I agree in general because he may lose his stack with top pair. However, if he has a pocket pair and will only continue if he hits a set, then raising is correct even if he will fold. If you call, 7.5/8.5 times you win 480 chips. The other 1/8.5 times, you lose your stack or close to it. 7.5/8.5 *480 - 1.5/8.5 * 5000 = -460 chips. i.e. You lose 460 chips by just calling if he has a pocket pair. I approximated some numbers but the conclusion is still valid.

Steve

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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raising is a mistake if he is going to fold.

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I agree in general because he may lose his stack with top pair. However, if he has a pocket pair and will only continue if he hits a set, then raising is correct even if he will fold. If you call, 7.5/8.5 times you win 480 chips. The other 1/8.5 times, you lose your stack or close to it. 7.5/8.5 *480 - 1.5/8.5 * 5000 = -460 chips. i.e. You lose 460 chips by just calling if he has a pocket pair. I approximated some numbers but the conclusion is still valid.

Steve

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Well put, Steve. This is in addition to the fact that raising is also the correct way to ensure we get Villain's stack when he hits with a number of his other possible holdings.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Quick question for you Foucault. We agree we should raise if he has a pocket pair, but is that your default play? I would often just call because many people will commit their entire stack with a top pair or weak overpair type of hand.

Steve

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

your math is off. you have not included the main pot in your EV.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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your math is off. you have not included the main pot in your EV.

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My math is from the last decision point. Calling is +EV when you look at the whole hand, raising has a higher EV by about 460 chips.

Steve

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

I like how there have been 21 replies to this thread, most of them dealing with when villain has a pocket pair, and not one of them points out that when villain has KQs and a Q flops he is not 'bluffing' into the dry sidepot at all.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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I like how there have been 21 replies to this thread, most of them dealing with when villain has a pocket pair, and not one of them points out that when villain has KQs and a Q flops he is not 'bluffing' into the dry sidepot at all.

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I'm not 100% sure of what you're saying, but I repeatedly said that most villains will commit their entire stack (or a lot of it) with a top pair type of hand. That's why I would usually just call the raise even though it would be correct to reraise if he had a pair.

Steve

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

If we think our opponent is decent, we have to consider the greater likelihood that he calls raises in position with hands where he knows where he is at (pocket pairs, suited connectors), than hands where he doesn't when he CALLS a raise (non AK/AQ broadways like KQ/KJ/QJ/KT/QT, where he could be crushed by AK/AQ).

Think about when you get someone's whole stack with top pair, good kicker...its when you think your opponent is on some sort of bluff/semibluff...which is far, far less likely when there is an all in player with a main pot...and you'll have to show your bluff and likely lose the main pot.

I think this is a clear situation of win a little or lose a lot with your AA. Your opponent has a hand where he knows where he's at the vast majority of the time, he has position, and he has a situation where you aren't likely to be bluffing if you bet. Ideal situation for him, crappy situation to you...don't price him into it. You know where you are at now...take position away from him.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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I like how there have been 21 replies to this thread, most of them dealing with when villain has a pocket pair, and not one of them points out that when villain has KQs and a Q flops he is not 'bluffing' into the dry sidepot at all.

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FMP:

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There are also hands like KQ that may find a fold if Hero smooth calls and then three-bets or check-raises a Q-high flop. If Hero juices the pot before the flop, KQ may well stick around anyway, and then will have a much harder time getting away from top pair.

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Are you saying smooth calling is best if Villain has KQ? Do you think KQ folds if Hero re-pops?

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Yeah, I suck at reading. But if he has KQ, of course a call is best and of course he'll fold to a reraise.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Personally my line here would be a sizeable re-raise preflop. Im not so concerned with winning the extra 480 from the villain as I am not getting stacked if I let him hit a set or two pair. In a tournament you're looking to survive, and I think calling is just giving him correct odds to hammer you if he really hits.

And I think occassionally you will find him calling your re-raise or pushing into you and in that case you're probably getting maximum value from aces than you would if you just called and bet the flop.

If you're going to call and see the flop then make a sizeable bet on the flop to shut him out, a check-raise can possibly let him see a free card if he checks behind you.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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In a tournament you're looking to survive

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sigh

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Yes, well I wasn't really looking to survive; what I should have tried to do is get maximum value out of the hand. What I did instead was whizz my slider across and raise another 1000. My opponent saw the writing on the wall and folded.

In retrospect what I should have done is prevaricated for a while before calling, he'd have called, then I could bet out hoping he caught a bit of the flop (but not too much).

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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In a tournament you're looking to survive

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sigh

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lol.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

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Yeah, I suck at reading. But if he has KQ, of course a call is best and of course he'll fold to a reraise.

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This might be an image question. When I have a stack Hero's size at these blinds, I am raising pretty frequently, and I would not be at all surprised to see a call from KQ. I know you often have a tighter image, Adanthar, so perhaps players are more likely to dump KQ to your raise.

For the record, this is not primarily a question of survival for me. I do want to give bad implied odds to hands that will not give any action unless I am beat, but I am also interested in building a pot to help me stack something like KQ, and am more than willing to give away my stack the times KQ is lucky enough to make two pair, or, heaven forbid, the AJT flop.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

If you play tournaments where the action goes: AA raises/KQ calls/short stack pushes/AA reraises/KQ calls the reraise, and they're > $20 buyins, I'd like to know the site and time, please. Seriously.

That's my fault not specifying the buyin, though. In a $5 or $10, of course you go ahead and push.

Re: Getting Value from Aces
 

Maybe if Hero and Villain had much deeper stacks, then Hero would be correct to smoothcall the SB's raise -- as long as Hero is good enough not to lose too much with the AA those times that Villain sucks out.

However, on the actual stack sizes here, Hero will just about always stack off when Villain can beat AA. Therefore it really would be a mistake here for Hero to smoothcall the SB's all-in because the impied odds that would offer to Villain are just too high if Villain has a pocket pair, and even if Villain has a suited connector his implied odds calling 480 are not too bad.

Raising to 1730 is an okay play for Hero. Actually a smaller raise than that would be better: this type of situation is one of the rare times when a minraise (to 1210) might be optimal, because it may appear to Villain that Hero is merely trying to isolate, prompting Villain to go for a reisolation play.

(If Hero's cards here were something like AJo rather than AA, then I'd similarly say that Hero's best play is to reraise to 1210.)