Flop Decision
 

Loose passive 10 handed 15/30 in the bunny patch. Two loose EP limpers, I call 2-off the button with QsTs. Very loose passive button calls, good small blind completes, and decent BB checks. Yeah. Tough game.

Flop is Jh 7d 2s. SB bets, BB folds, limpers call, I... fold.

This fold is automatic for me, even though I suspect I have a call -- this schism between what I think is correct and what I do prompts my question about what you do on the flop.

Any card above a 7 gives me a gutter, a double gutter, or a pair (3 outs of which will be top pair), and any spade gives me a flush draw, as luck would have it, some give me a flush and straight draws. I'm not last to act, but that doesn't worry me too much. It is, really, not too much less than what I can hope for (flopped quads is, alas, rare) with a monster like QTs.

The reasons I fold are that a) the outs above my overcard will often cause a turn raise even in a passive game, b) the 8 puts a possible straight on board -- but, even more, the scenario I hate is c) when an A or 8 hits and the SB bets out and the two limpers fold -- now I'm in a quandry where I can't really call solely for a gut shot and I'm not sure if my pair outs are any good, and the hand is shaping up to be, call, call, call, fold. Yes, and I also get a sinking feeling when the button raises...

All but the last of these summarize as: I might improve and be forced to fold, or improve to a good draw, but get a mediocre price on it. There are only a couple cards that give me a monster draw.

What say you? I mean, Sklansky probably makes this call, right? -- I suspect reason c) exposes me as a mediocrity -- folding to avoid what will some small but significant percentage of the time be a difficult turn decision. For all of the above, I'm likely do dump QTs preflop even in a passive game... blecch.

Re: Flop Decision
 

your pair outs are dubious given the prevalence of QJ and JT in unraised pots. it can still get raised behind you. it can get really ugly on the turn if you pick up a flush draw or straight draw and get sunk in for multiple bets in succession.

the thing about these hands is that i never remember catching a queen on the turn and winning. i always remember playing a turned flush draw for multiple bets on the turn and missing.

i fold here unless i'm against very weak and/or bluffworthy opponents, but i am interested to see the response on this.

Re: Flop Decision
 

Yeah, I forgot to mention the questionable quality of the pair outs. I think, even discounting the pair outs and the non-nutti-ness of the flush, this is easily valued as a 4.5 out hand and a pretty easy call that I don't make. Imagine if I river a flush only to go to war with As4s and be traumatised for a week.

By the way... THE RESULTS: I make a straight flush and the river goes 18 bets.

Hee, hee. Actually, I'm not sure, as I got up to make tea, an herbal blend really suits me when I'm feeling like a sissy. I think the turn was a low blank, and it went bet, fold, fold -- so it was a good fold [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] -- but I'm not sure and I don't use their annoying history function much.

Re: Flop Decision
 

I don't recall how exactly he puts it, but andyfox says something to the effect of "it's hard to not flop a pair or big draw and not flop some backdoor draws."

Easy fold.

Re: Flop Decision
 

I don't think this hand and this flop help to "win money, not pots."

I lose more in games like this than in any other. Because it's so L/P, I'm calling and catching TP only to see a guy UTG turn over J7s. I think "What? What is he doing? What am I doing? How much are we playing for?".

From reading your responses to other posts, it sounds like your game is solid. So was this fold.