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-   -   aa vs set (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=405181)

12-26-2005 01:03 AM

aa vs set
 
easy fold?

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($103.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($116.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($94.70)</font>
MP ($146.30)
Button ($69.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $24</font>

Isura 12-26-2005 01:05 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
I push.

xorbie 12-26-2005 01:06 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
thats a pretty [censored] ass flop.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:09 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
easy fold?

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($103.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($116.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($94.70)</font>
MP ($146.30)
Button ($69.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $24</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

opponent dependent but against most players I'd call here and check the turn, see if he takes the free card.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:09 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

? explain that

12-26-2005 01:15 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
He refused the free card. Hows this line?

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($103.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($116.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($94.70)</font>
MP ($146.30)
Button ($69.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $24</font>, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($61.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $75</font>

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:19 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
He refused the free card. Hows this line?

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($103.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($116.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($94.70)</font>
MP ($146.30)
Button ($69.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $24</font>, Hero calls $12.

Turn: ($61.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $75</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

hate it, you just got pot commited when one of the scare cards hit

Isura 12-26-2005 01:19 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

? explain that

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to get called by TT-KK and 2 spades higher than 9 all the time.

12-26-2005 01:20 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]

hate it, you just got pot commited when one of the scare cards hit

[/ QUOTE ]
I put him all in

12-26-2005 01:21 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
I agree, you should expect another overpair more than a set if you have no reads on UTG.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:23 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

hate it, you just got pot commited when one of the scare cards hit

[/ QUOTE ]
I put him all in

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't check his stack, doesn't matter much, he has put you to the decision, not the other way around

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:24 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

? explain that

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to get called by TT-KK and 2 spades higher than 9 all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

you see TT-KK from an utg limper 5handed?

ajmargarine 12-26-2005 01:38 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
thats a pretty [censored] ass flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure have been posting alot since you retired from poker. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Did you unretire or what?

12-26-2005 02:00 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
Why did you wait for the turn to push? Pushing flop seems better with such a draw heavy board.

12-26-2005 02:11 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you wait for the turn to push? Pushing flop seems better with such a draw heavy board.

[/ QUOTE ]
Tilt =/

Edit: I think my line is terrible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

12-26-2005 02:14 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
Xorbie,
Pushing seems wrong because a low PP (likely from limp/call pf) will kill you EV wise - correct strategy for AA vs 22 is to check/fold unless you hit a set. What do you think?

willmay3 12-26-2005 02:29 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy fold?

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($103.50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($116.60)</font>
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($94.70)</font>
MP ($146.30)
Button ($69.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $24</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

opponent dependent but against most players I'd call here and check the turn, see if he takes the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this guy has it right. There are a few things I'd like to know about this guy you are playing:

1. Is he a good player?

2. Has he limped from early position before?

3. How has he typically been playing draws and made hands.

Let me give you an example. I have a guy I play with regularly who IS a good player and likes to limp in with a variety of hands. He'll do it with Aces,Kings, AK, small pairs, suited connectors - alot of different things.

He generally plays very aggressive with draws in position and with made hands out of position and plays them the opposite when the position is changed. And he is not aggressive AT ALL with medium to big pairs on or after the flop that haven't improved.

Against this guy who I play with, you can bank that you are nearly dead. He has you with exactly the hand he is hoping. He has a set about 95%, maybe an up and down straight flush draw the other times, and about 1% of the time a straight bluff.

If you have no read on this opponent, and it is a typical game for this level, which means you have alot of weak players who overvalue hands like Ax or an overpair, then I'd be inclined to set him all in on the flop.

If he is a mid-level thinker, like me, I'd also do that. I'm not a good player, maybe a little above average. I am more likely to have limped in with KK and now think I am trapping you, or trying to protect my hand against what I perceive as the weak players that play any Ace in this game.

Does that make sense? BTW, I'm trying to get better [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

xorbie 12-26-2005 02:29 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
thats a pretty [censored] ass flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure have been posting alot since you retired from poker. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Did you unretire or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

no. i enjoy thinking about the game, im just trying not to play right now. if i dont post ill get rusty.

xorbie 12-26-2005 02:30 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
if i put money in on this flop i would rather check raise all in then bet. checking this flop is a pretty decent line i think.

12-26-2005 03:12 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
I'm trying to put myself in the opponent's place. Limp 5 handed with an 8-7 of spades? J-10? UTG?

Well, it's possible. Call $5 more to me? How drunk/frustrated am I?

On the other hand this makes more sense if I hold a pair. What the hell; you could have A-K or A-garbage

Now on the flop, when you raise $12 and I go over the top and double your raise, I've either put you on a bluff (unlikely) am drawing to a flush and feeling very lucky or--most likely I've either

a. Hit a set on the flop.

b. Think my pair of 10's J's Q's or K's has you beat with that ragged flop

So either go all-in or fold after 'my' reraise on the flop. The pot's big enough, can't see continuing to call, even if you think I'm a maniac on a nutty draw or bluff--and you haven't indicated any sort of read, just the pain of getting a scare card on the turn.

So, I repeat that the correct play was to fold or go all-in.

Which one?---- Beats the hell out of me

I don't think it's an easy fold

12-26-2005 03:15 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
nice post murphy's law, thanks

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 03:26 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to put myself in the opponent's place. Limp 5 handed with an 8-7 of spades? J-10? UTG?

Well, it's possible. Call $5 more to me? How drunk/frustrated am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can limp 87s or JTs and call a raise in position with it prefectly sober

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand this makes more sense if I hold a pair. What the hell; you could have A-K or A-garbage

Now on the flop, when you raise $12 and I go over the top and double your raise, I've either put you on a bluff (unlikely) am drawing to a flush and feeling very lucky

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here

[ QUOTE ]
or--most likely I've either

a. Hit a set on the flop.

b. Think my pair of 10's J's Q's or K's has you beat with that ragged flop

So either go all-in or fold after 'my' reraise on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.

xorbie 12-26-2005 03:27 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to put myself in the opponent's place. Limp 5 handed with an 8-7 of spades? J-10? UTG?


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't try to put yourself in your opponent's place. People limp 87 and JT UTG all the time, and they limp far worse.

12-26-2005 03:50 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is teh case, what line do you advocate if you smooth call? It seems like pushing is poor when you describe it thus.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 03:55 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not that simple and those are not hero's only options. If he 3bets here he folds all pp's and most hands he beats unless villain has a big draw, in wich case hero isn't much better than at a coin flip. Pushing and getting called here has you waaaaaay behind or slightly ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is teh case, what line do you advocate if you smooth call? It seems like pushing is poor when you describe it thus.

[/ QUOTE ]


I believe pushing the flop is poor. That's why I asked Isura why he advocated pushing since I respect his opinions a lot, his answer didn't really change my point of view, so I maintain that check folding the turn is the better option. If the turn bricks, he checks behind and the river bricks too than I check call the river. But that's a lot of if's and bricks.

12-26-2005 03:56 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 04:06 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

12-26-2005 04:12 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
you are right, its too late need to go to bed and stop playing poker

12-26-2005 06:21 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
Fallen Hero:

As to TT and KK who have limped in raising on the turn instead of checking it, quite so, but then so will anyone who has made a set--esp a small one and wants to protect it. So, I don't think you'll be getting more info this way.

Unless I'm missing something, " he has put you to the decision, not the other way around. "

And "way too many ifs"

Granted, you're right about limping and calling a small raise against 1 opponent with J-10s or 8-7s, UTG 'perfectly sober'.-- esp in a typical 5 handed game. It might even be a +ev play

IN FACT:

"I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here"

Which sucks against AA as far as a + EV play (er..35%, right?) is a GREAT move IF you're playing against a by-the- book aggressive/tight opponent who plays only few quality hands, raises AA on a ragged flop BUT then when he's re-raised forgets his aggression, and only remembers his tightnes.

Taking the risks of either going all-in and losing to a set or folding to a bluff is far bettter than going from tight/aggressive to weak/tight after the flop.

Needless to say, I could be absolutely wrong in my analysis. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 06:37 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
DISCLAIMER: Sleep depravation may be screwing up this post.
[ QUOTE ]
Fallen Hero:

As to TT and KK who have limped in raising on the turn instead of checking it, quite so, but then so will anyone who has made a set--esp a small one and wants to protect it. So, I don't think you'll be getting more info this way.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said before I don't think TT-KK is on villain's hand range

[ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something, " he has put you to the decision, not the other way around. "

And "way too many ifs"

Granted, you're right about limping and calling a small raise against 1 opponent with J-10s or 8-7s, UTG 'perfectly sober'.-- esp in a typical 5 handed game. It might even be a +ev play

IN FACT:

"I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here"

Which sucks against AA as far as a + EV play (er..35%, right?) is a GREAT move IF you're playing against a by-the- book aggressive/tight opponent who plays only few quality hands, raises AA on a ragged flop BUT then when he's re-raised forgets his aggression, and only remembers his tightnes.


[/ QUOTE ]

being oop sucks [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I know there's a lot we beat here that's why I said I don't like folding on the flop, but putting villain on a range of hands here I'd say he has: a set, a combo draw, a simple flush draw or a pair (if he's really bad). Of those I'd say generally he checks behind on the turn with a pair and a bad flush draw (aka what we beat) and bets the rest.
So what I'm basically saying is that by moving in on the flop he folds everything we beat and calls with everything that beats us (or has us 50/50), by calling and checking the turn you get a better idea what his hand is (at the cost of a free card, nothing you can do here).

About the whole "going from tight agressive to weak/tight": overpairs oop on big pots (specially with that kind of flop) are horrible, there's nothing weak/tight about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Taking the risks of either going all-in and losing to a set or folding to a bluff is far bettter than going from tight/aggressive to weak/tight after the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (and I rarely do something I consider weak tight, in fact I spend most of my time looking at hands I think I played to agressively [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Morrek 12-26-2005 09:56 AM

Re: aa vs set
 
Reads are so very important here, does he minraise with draws? with the nuts? with overpairs to test your cb? Against unknown I think I'd play it like you, call and c/r turn allin, not sure about that specific turn card however.

Against some TAG's that I "know" have AA I can raise this flop with like 88 and make him fold everytime putting me on a straight or set or whatever.

Isura 12-26-2005 12:01 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:21 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

so you see people normally limping QQ and KK five handed? I'll give you TT, I do see people limping TT utg 5 handed, but that's about it

Morrek 12-26-2005 01:29 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

so you see people normally limping QQ and KK five handed? I'll give you TT, I do see people limping TT utg 5 handed, but that's about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I see people who never ever ever raise preflop, or atleast extremely rarely, and then I see them showdown like KJo, while at the same time they are limp calling AA KK QQ etc. Although this is usually very easily spotted through PT stats, which are not provided by the OP here.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 01:35 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

so you see people normally limping QQ and KK five handed? I'll give you TT, I do see people limping TT utg 5 handed, but that's about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I see people who never ever ever raise preflop, or atleast extremely rarely, and then I see them showdown like KJo, while at the same time they are limp calling AA KK QQ etc. Although this is usually very easily spotted through PT stats, which are not provided by the OP here.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you're both right, there are some players that will limp just about anything even 5 handed, but without reads that's like saying he could be doing this with 72o. I don't think these hands should be given any serious considerations unless we already know villain.

Morrek 12-26-2005 01:45 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

so you see people normally limping QQ and KK five handed? I'll give you TT, I do see people limping TT utg 5 handed, but that's about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I see people who never ever ever raise preflop, or atleast extremely rarely, and then I see them showdown like KJo, while at the same time they are limp calling AA KK QQ etc. Although this is usually very easily spotted through PT stats, which are not provided by the OP here.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, you're both right, there are some players that will limp just about anything even 5 handed, but without reads that's like saying he could be doing this with 72o. I don't think these hands should be given any serious considerations unless we already know villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's just the thing is, I can't give a good answer here without any kind of read as it's very dependant on that. Maybe he limps monsters(slowplays them, not very uncommon), maybe he doesn't, maybe he only does this with sets, or maybe he only does this with air and slowplays his sets.

I don't see why we have to assume we're beat just because he minraised us, he could easily have a shitload of hands here, draws, sets, straight, top pair+draw, top pair and no draw, overpairs, and whatnot.

Isura 12-26-2005 02:52 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
aggressive KK is not going to check turn

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone limps TT-KK utg 5 handed they limp-reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

What games have you been playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

so you see people normally limping QQ and KK five handed? I'll give you TT, I do see people limping TT utg 5 handed, but that's about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I see people who never ever ever raise preflop, or atleast extremely rarely, and then I see them showdown like KJo, while at the same time they are limp calling AA KK QQ etc. Although this is usually very easily spotted through PT stats, which are not provided by the OP here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, there are players with 5% PFR that still limp with QQ-AA.

12-26-2005 04:25 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
Any reason a stop and go doesn't work here?

12-26-2005 04:39 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
DISCLAIMER: Sleep depravation may be screwing up this post.
[ QUOTE ]
Fallen Hero:

As to TT and KK who have limped in raising on the turn instead of checking it, quite so, but then so will anyone who has made a set--esp a small one and wants to protect it. So, I don't think you'll be getting more info this way.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said before I don't think TT-KK is on villain's hand range

[ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm missing something, " he has put you to the decision, not the other way around. "

And "way too many ifs"

Granted, you're right about limping and calling a small raise against 1 opponent with J-10s or 8-7s, UTG 'perfectly sober'.-- esp in a typical 5 handed game. It might even be a +ev play

IN FACT:

"I don't need to feel lucky to raise a flush draw here"

Which sucks against AA as far as a + EV play (er..35%, right?) is a GREAT move IF you're playing against a by-the- book aggressive/tight opponent who plays only few quality hands, raises AA on a ragged flop BUT then when he's re-raised forgets his aggression, and only remembers his tightnes.


[/ QUOTE ]

being oop sucks [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I know there's a lot we beat here that's why I said I don't like folding on the flop, but putting villain on a range of hands here I'd say he has: a set, a combo draw, a simple flush draw or a pair (if he's really bad). Of those I'd say generally he checks behind on the turn with a pair and a bad flush draw (aka what we beat) and bets the rest.
So what I'm basically saying is that by moving in on the flop he folds everything we beat and calls with everything that beats us (or has us 50/50), by calling and checking the turn you get a better idea what his hand is (at the cost of a free card, nothing you can do here).

About the whole "going from tight agressive to weak/tight": overpairs oop on big pots (specially with that kind of flop) are horrible, there's nothing weak/tight about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Taking the risks of either going all-in and losing to a set or folding to a bluff is far bettter than going from tight/aggressive to weak/tight after the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (and I rarely do something I consider weak tight, in fact I spend most of my time looking at hands I think I played to agressively [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, maybe sleep deprivation is screwing up my thinking but, to recap:

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Button calls $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, UTG calls $5, Button folds.

Flop: ($13.50) 6, 9, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $24

Now, to my thinking, if at this point hero pushes and takes down the pot, terrific. There's enough dough.

Losing to a set? Sure it's not an easy call BUT
I still can't figure out why you don't put villain on TT-KK? Just because he limped? He's already called a raise and gone over the top on the raggedy flop.

So, if I understand what you're saying, you're putting him on a possible draw, so you check the turn and if he bets it, then THAT's the indicator that he's made his hand ( er. . . esp if a 'scare card comes? ) or already had a set on the flop.

And you don't consider this weak/tight play. Though you're giving a free card, you're going to get the info, because if he is on a draw he's going to check after you check, and if he bets (how much, btw?) you fold.

I see the logic of your thinking here but . . .

OK, time to get some sleep and have nightmares about hands I've overplayed [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Pax, all.

Fallen Hero 12-26-2005 04:58 PM

Re: aa vs set
 
[ QUOTE ]
Now, to my thinking, if at this point hero pushes and takes down the pot, terrific. There's enough dough.


[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[ QUOTE ]
Losing to a set? Sure it's not an easy call BUT
I still can't figure out why you don't put villain on TT-KK? Just because he limped? He's already called a raise and gone over the top on the raggedy flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can have TT-KK, as far as possibilities go he can have any two cards, but it doesn't make any sense with this action so I don't consider it.

[ QUOTE ]
So, if I understand what you're saying, you're putting him on a possible draw, so you check the turn and if he bets it, then THAT's the indicator that he's made his hand ( er. . . esp if a 'scare card comes? ) or already had a set on the flop.

And you don't consider this weak/tight play. Though you're giving a free card, you're going to get the info, because if he is on a draw he's going to check after you check, and if he bets (how much, btw?) you fold.

I see the logic of your thinking here but . . .


[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with not giving away a free card in this spot is that you can't price out draws so if you make a decent sized bet and get raised you're pot commited, if you make any bet that doesn't commmit you you're giving perfect odds to draws and showing a ton of weakness so you might get pushed off the best hand by a decent player. A check looks a lot scarier than a bet here.


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