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-   -   um, QQ fold preflop? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=406697)

willie 12-28-2005 07:00 PM

um, QQ fold preflop?
 
sorry, trying to wrap my head around this hand

bout the 4th hand of the tourney (super tuesday)

utg, QQ

raise to 60 (i know, shoulda been a lil more)

call (mp)
call (CO)
call (button)

sb makes it 400

bb folds

let's poll it

yoadrians 12-28-2005 07:37 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
Easy poooooosh for me. Here's to hoping the SB is making a move. Gotta think QQ is good there. And if not, I'll just boot up another one, but it's a push here for me every time.

Dan Mezick 12-28-2005 07:49 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I'm dying to hear from the elite posters in this forum on this situation. Out of position facing a large raise and 2 to act behind holding QQ, great example to discuss.

MLG 12-28-2005 07:57 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
first hand of a party super you'd have to tie my hands behind my back to keep me from pushing, and then id probably push with my nose.

woodguy 12-28-2005 07:58 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
Raising to 60 is fine lin level 1 of the Super, my standard raise in level 1 is to 55.

I really can't see AA being played like that.

Most often I see AK or JJ/TT being played like that.

I fear KK, but just a little.

Given I'm putting the sb on that range of AK/JJ/TT with a smidge of KK, my chips beat his to the pot.

Regards,
Woodguy

ononimo 12-28-2005 08:15 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
the elite posters

[/ QUOTE ]

this phrase has to go.

and yes, it's a push.

Masquerade 12-28-2005 09:08 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
How many starting chips? 1000 or 1500? And why isnt call an option?

JeanieJ 12-28-2005 09:12 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
this phrase has to go.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree we're all at different skill levels and some are obv better than others... but this term sucks and it's almost a put down to other posters.

Elaboration 12-28-2005 10:04 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
raise seems fine to me. I bump it anywhere from 50-60. I cant see folding QQ this early w/out a read. I push to get heads up with the sb and expect to see AQ-AK,TT-KK and maybe AA.

12-28-2005 10:46 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
This is a tough one. I don't think I'd be so quick to rule out AA or KK. Think about your reraise here if you held AA.

woodguy 12-28-2005 10:49 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Think about your reraise here if you held AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly wouldn't be to 60% of the starting stack almost guaranteeing no action (unless someone has QQ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

If I had AA in the SB, I'd probably make it 250ish to go, not 600..

Regards,
Woodguy

12-28-2005 11:03 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
SB made it 400, no? You're right in that I would also bump it to about 250ish, but I can't really criticize someone for bumping it to 400 here either. After all, you know one of these donks will probably call (with QQ). ;-)

REL18 12-28-2005 11:21 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I push this so hard my wrist snaps on the way in from the speed of my push hes gonna show u jj or tt gl

willie 12-28-2005 11:34 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
thanks for the replies

i've been on an awesome run so i was doubting myself after pushing and having AA turned up on me.

meh, decked.

woodguy 12-28-2005 11:49 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]

SB made it 400, no? You're right in that I would also bump it to about 250ish, but I can't really criticize someone for bumping it to 400 here either. After all, you know one of these donks will probably call (with QQ). ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason I had it in my head that he raised to 600. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

It may be an inexperienced player with AA, but my range still stands making it a very quick push.

First level of a Super plays very donkish, and its best to get those easy chips before anyone else.

If he has me beat, he has me beat, I've seen far too many hands I dominate make this bet to think of laying this down.

Regards,
Woodguy

davidross 12-29-2005 01:51 AM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I fold here almost everytime. I call a push, but it'salmost always AA or KK going part way here. It's not a bunch of limpers being raised, it'san utg raise and a bunch of callers. I'd be shocked if a bluffer or AK didn't push here.

If I'm wrong I'm out 60 chips at a table with a bunch of players willing to mix it up and I like my chances of getting the chips anyway.

FishInAPhoneBooth 12-29-2005 03:22 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here almost everytime. I call a push, but it'salmost always AA or KK going part way here. It's not a bunch of limpers being raised, it'san utg raise and a bunch of callers. I'd be shocked if a bluffer or AK didn't push here.

If I'm wrong I'm out 60 chips at a table with a bunch of players willing to mix it up and I like my chances of getting the chips anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am slightly confused by your reasoning. Is the issue you think this edge is to small to be pushed or do you feel you have no edge because of the action?

12-29-2005 03:27 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
sorry, trying to wrap my head around this hand

bout the 4th hand of the tourney (super tuesday)

utg, QQ

raise to 60 (i know, shoulda been a lil more)

call (mp)
call (CO)
call (button)

sb makes it 400

bb folds

let's poll it

[/ QUOTE ]

was in similar situation the other day, almost folded QQ (this was a $11 buyin). UTG raised to 4 BB's, MP1 pushes allin and i'm in SB with QQ. Thought for about 30 seconds about folding, then i called and UTG called. I tripled up against 77 and 99.

12-29-2005 03:33 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
wait, you'd be SHOCKED if AK didn't push for like 8x the pot instead of a reraise?

Art Vandelay 12-29-2005 03:45 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sorry, trying to wrap my head around this hand

bout the 4th hand of the tourney (super tuesday)

utg, QQ

raise to 60 (i know, shoulda been a lil more)

call (mp)
call (CO)
call (button)

sb makes it 400

bb folds

let's poll it

[/ QUOTE ]

was in similar situation the other day, almost folded QQ (this was a $11 buyin). UTG raised to 4 BB's, MP1 pushes allin and i'm in SB with QQ. Thought for about 30 seconds about folding, then i called and UTG called. I tripled up against 77 and 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think this is more likely scenario in the early stages than the one that OP ran into.

Push it.

davidross 12-29-2005 03:47 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I'm saying in my experience that AK is WAY more likely to push here than raise to 600. THe halfway raise is almost always AA, wheras the pure bluffs overbet most of the time.

davidross 12-29-2005 03:51 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I'm saying I fold because I believe more than half the time I'm going to see AA or KK (and I believe it's more like 75% of the time in these events) based on the betting he described. If I have some other read on the guy I might play it different, but I really think QQ is toast here.

As an aside, I am much more risk averse than most other posters, so bear that in mind. If I knew he had AK, I'd still hate pushing but would probably do it. I don't play a big stack all that well, so surviving is more important to me early. I usually get a better than 53% chance of doubling by flopping a set or 2 pair and getting callers, so I'm much more willing to pass the early chances.

ansky451 12-29-2005 04:37 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
If the opponent was an unknown in a super, I'd push. I have seen ATs and 66 way too many times for me to beleive him. If he was a 2+2er or a player I knew, I'd fold without much hesitation.

P.S. Ultimately for me this is a fold because I'm one of those elite posters. I cash about 50% of the time and can double up playing blind anyway, so I don't need to take coinflips or even 80% shots. I was just giving a default response for the non-elite obviously.

12-29-2005 04:39 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent was an unknown in a super, I'd push. I have seen ATs and 66 way too many times for me to beleive him. If he was a 2+2er or a player I knew, I'd fold without much hesitation.

P.S. Ultimately for me this is a fold because I'm one of those elite posters. I cash about 50% of the time and can double up playing blind anyway, so I don't need to take coinflips or even 80% shots. I was just giving a default response for the non-elite obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe, excellent.

12-30-2005 10:56 AM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
I'd have to have been at the table to make a decision. Was the raiser loose? Had he lost a pot on the last few hands?

4th hand, Level 1 10/15 blinds, you're out what 60 chips if you fold? I'd probably fold half the time, push or just call the other half.

Why just call? with that raise...I'm putting the guy on JJ-99, AK, AQ, KK AA

That's the order of what I ( just me ) would work out what he could be holding.

So flop comes blanks, you're a big fav over anything BUT AA or KK...and then you lose..oh well that's poker.

This happened to me the other night in a $55 SNG. I was early, went 4x BB w/ QQ, Button doubles my raise, next guy insta calls..after some thought I just called. I had the raiser on AK, KK or AA.....

Flop comes Q T 3...I check he pushes, I go over the top.

Shows red KK vs my QQQ

of course there were two diamonds on the flop, and he rnr rnr'd the K hi fl to my Q hi fl.

But almost any other time that flop hits, I'm getting paid.

betgo 12-30-2005 12:15 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
If the opponent was an unknown in a super, I'd push. I have seen ATs and 66 way too many times for me to beleive him. If he was a 2+2er or a player I knew, I'd fold without much hesitation.

P.S. Ultimately for me this is a fold because I'm one of those elite posters. I cash about 50% of the time and can double up playing blind anyway, so I don't need to take coinflips or even 80% shots. I was just giving a default response for the non-elite obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a push against a random player and probably a fold against a good player.

I think a bigger pair is a good possibility. OP raised UTG. If you are SB with AA, what do you put OP on? Presumably AA-99 or AQ-AK. 99-TT, AQ, KQ, AJ, a suited connector, suited broadway cards, a small pair or something may fold to a reraise anyway. If OP has JJ-KK or AK, which he has a fairly large percentage of the time, he will probably push.

Dave D 12-30-2005 01:59 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Easy poooooosh for me. Here's to hoping the SB is making a move. Gotta think QQ is good there. And if not, I'll just boot up another one, but it's a push here for me every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very likely in almost any online tourney. You have to push here. You're only afriad of two hands.

Incidently, the raise PF is fine, 60 is the most I would ever raise there.

12-31-2005 11:23 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
what's the starting chip count?

graydot 12-31-2005 11:29 PM

Re: um, QQ fold preflop?
 
Push. Early chance in the tournament to double up. But only because this is early in a PP tourny


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