QQ on Interesting Turn
 

On the turn, both villains are unknown.

MP2 was all in after his turn raise

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 raises, Hero ?

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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On the turn, both villains are unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 raises, Hero ?

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you are Getting 11-1, seems like a call to me. I'm folding the river UI though. You Q outs might be good sometimes as well.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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MP2 was all in after his turn raise

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3-bet?

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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MP2 was all in after his turn raise

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3-bet?

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What's your goal in 3-betting this? If you're behind MP2, but ahead of the others, seems like you just end up folding worse hands here, and winning a dry side pot.

If you're behind MP2 and you call here, you can only hope to take home a consolation prize of the big street overcalls. There are a few draws out there, but nothing to be too worried about. A single J has two queen outs to beat you, and there's the unlikely backdoor diamond draw.

It really depends on the read of MP2; you need a reason to think you're ahead of him. There just isn't enough potential side pot money out there to go after; so you need to win the main pot to make continuing worthwhile. With no read and two other opponents, I guess I'm probably done with the hand at this point.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

please check out my edit that MP was all in on the raise.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

What happened to UTG+1?

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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What happened to UTG+1?

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He died between the flop and turn.

I don't know what in the world happened there. Anyway, he was gone.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

I don't think you fold UTG and are ahead of MP2 often enought to make 3betting worth while.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

"I guess I'm probably done with the hand at this point."

you have to at least call, you are getting 11:1 on your gutshot and discounted Q outs

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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you have to at least call, you are getting 11:1 on your gutshot and discounted Q outs

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You're getting 11:1 if there's a guarantee of no more action. But if either of the two players left to starts putting more money in the pot either now or on 5th street, you might have wished you had folded.

You're actually getting 13:1 if the two hands behind you call.

Suppose we call here, and get two overcalls. What's the plan for the river? How about one overcall?

I can see the merits of a call here, but we need a plan going forward.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

I decided to call and bet most rivers.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

you're beat.. oh and p.s. i like the flop bet.. but obviously your opponents arent going anywhere.. check/fold this 9 turn.

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ok.. so you're getting 11:1.. you're probably behind at this point.. theres an over.. and you're facing multi opponents.. im still folding.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

oh and p.s.

its 2/4.. 11:1 is not that rare of an occasion that you need to be throwing bets away at opponents to MAYBE win a 3 big bet side pot..

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

folding getting at least 11:1, if you were going to get raised on the turn they would have already done it. Sorry but this is horrible.

I call hoping to get 12:1. Our hand is probably good but we want to bring UTG along anyway. I don't think 3-betting has much merit because a K will probably call and anything we beat will most likely fold. The board isn't draw heavy so I don't think there is much for him to draw to.

I bet most rivers, but don't like getting raised.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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Are you hoping to fold a better hand?

Because I don't see any hand that limps UTG, calls this flop not closing the action, calls the turn and a turn raise, then calls a river bet that you beat.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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I think this a good plan as you should pick up extra money from UTG who appears to not have a K. I suggested a 3-bet on the turn for this reason, but thinking about it a little more I like this plan better as you encourage this guy to call with a wider range.

OTOH though, it would be really sexy if you 3-bet promotion raise the turn, forcing out a better hand from UTG while getting all in against a guy trying to get his money in on a long shot. This is probably wishful thinking, but maybe, just maybe.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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Are you hoping to fold a better hand?

Because I don't see any hand that limps UTG, calls this flop not closing the action, calls the turn and a turn raise, then calls a river bet that you beat.

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AQ, AJ, AT, A9s, 55, 66, 77, 88, JJ, JT.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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ok.. so you're getting 11:1.. you're probably behind at this point.. theres an over.. and you're facing multi opponents.. im still folding.

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Hi Bill King,

11:1 is enough to call on his four gutshot outs alone.

Best wishes,
Shant

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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Are you hoping to fold a better hand?

Because I don't see any hand that limps UTG, calls this flop not closing the action, calls the turn and a turn raise, then calls a river bet that you beat.

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AQ, AJ, AT, A9s, 55, 66, 77, 88, JJ, JT.

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AQ, AJ raise preflop. If they don't, they're not calling a river bet.

55, 66, 77, 88, A9 are never calling a flop and turn bet, let alone a river bet.

AT, JT are extremely slim possibilities after Hero raised preflop and bet every street.

JJ is the only one I would say could call a river bet but it would have raised preflop.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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I think this a good plan as you should pick up extra money from UTG who appears to not have a K. I suggested a 3-bet on the turn for this reason, but thinking about it a little more I like this plan better as you encourage this guy to call with a wider range.

OTOH though, it would be really sexy if you 3-bet promotion raise the turn, forcing out a better hand from UTG while getting all in against a guy trying to get his money in on a long shot. This is probably wishful thinking, but maybe, just maybe.... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Lol [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. This would be fine but I don;t think you ever get UTG to fold a better hand since he is closing the action and getting approximately 7:1 or so on the call (only about 4:1 on the call down though).

I think however that the best strategy is to call turn, bet river. That way you get more bets when you beat UTG, raising turn is spewing [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

True

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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I decided to call and bet most rivers.

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Are you hoping to fold a better hand?

Because I don't see any hand that limps UTG, calls this flop not closing the action, calls the turn and a turn raise, then calls a river bet that you beat.

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AQ, AJ, AT, A9s, 55, 66, 77, 88, JJ, JT.

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AQ, AJ raise preflop. If they don't, they're not calling a river bet.

55, 66, 77, 88, A9 are never calling a flop and turn bet, let alone a river bet.

AT, JT are extremely slim possibilities after Hero raised preflop and bet every street.

JJ is the only one I would say could call a river bet but it would have raised preflop.

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Apparently Party 2/4 has changed since I was playing it regularly.

Here's what I remember:

AT/JT are often limping, and they're not going anywhere on the flop once they have a pair.

The pocket pairs will often peel the flop and sometimes the turn, hoping that they're best or they catch a set. (I used to get checkraised by rivered sets a fair amount of the time. And then sometimes, after I'd won a pot, I'd look at the hand history, thinking "What the hell was he calling with?" And then the next thing I'd say would be, "Oh. Pocket 3's.")

AQ and AJ are not necessarily raising preflop, but I agree that most of the time they won't call a river bet either.

I wouldn't be thinking about JJ much, but I don't think you should assume it's impossible for an unknown 2/4 player to limp with it.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

This all depends on what MP2 have. Since he was pushing all in he may not need a very strong hand. But he probably has at least two pair.

Alternative holdings:
1. The straight. We have three outs to a split. Disaster.
2. KQ,KJ: 3 outs (= 1 out + 4 outs to split). Bad.
3. A king + flush draw - four outs. We barely have the pot odds.
4. Only K (not Q/J kicker), K two pair, or a set &lt; KK. All six outs are live and we have some overlay. Nice.
5. T9 (or worse) two pair. We have 12 outs against MP2. Very good.
6. MP2 is actually just on a draw and we are ahead at the moment. Improbable but would of course be wonderful.

If this was HU I would call, but this all assumes that UTG will either fold or just call and not have a hand that interferes with any of our outs. That is assuming a lot.

What do we think UTG has? A king seems probable, and a hand like KJ or KQ is very possible, in which case we are in bad shape. I think a reraise is better than a call. This assumes UTG will fold a king for a raise here or fold on the river to a continuation bluff into the side pot (which I think is a reasonable play against most opponents).

The reraise might be the right play if we had a read that MP2 was a maniac, so that there is a fair probability we are ahead.

My opinion (unknown opponents): fold &gt; raise &gt; call

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

I think I like 3-betting.

We're probably behind MP2, but he could just be stacking off with a draw he picked up (JT) or even something worse (pocket 5's). And if I'm ahead, I'd rather not let UTG chase 4-5 outs (AJ/AT/JT) for just one more bet.

Plus, I'd kind of like to avoid an awkward OOP river, if possible. But I suppose if UTG has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a king, that awkward river is going to happen anyway (and I'm not going to rule out a cold-call from a pair + gutshot, either).

But, anyway, your plan of calling and betting most rivers seems all right to me too. My thinking is just that I care more about the main pot than a tiny side pot, and I don't trust all-in raises.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

Do online players not stack off the way live players do? In my usual game, this all-in raise on the turn means virtually nothing - it could be as little as a single A overcard. I'd definitely call the turn here and see what UTG does. I might actually c/f the river UI - I don't think that UTG is going to bluff at it or value bet his T with MP2 all-in.

I think I like checking this turn, though. With three flop callers the chances are pretty good that someone has a weak K (the only draws out there are straight draws, and your Qs reduce the number of them). Especially with the additional outs we picked up, I don't want to pay 2 bets to get to the river.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

My first instinct is to raise to protect our hand. Calling gives UTG 12:1 to call, which is great for her if she has 3.5 outs or more. My point is that she doesn't need much to profitably call this bet. She can call with any pair. However, raising gives her 7:1, which cuts her odds significantly. I think you have to 3-bet if you can't fold. MP2 could really be raising anything here, including Kx, Qx, Tx, Jx, A9 or any 2 diamonds, along with some other hands we wouldn't expect.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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Do online players not stack off the way live players do?

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Sometimes. And from what I've been able to gather, the play (if you want to call it that) is particularly popular at 2/4. I think the stacking off generally begins earlier in the hand, though.

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I think I like checking this turn, though. With three flop callers the chances are pretty good that someone has a weak K (the only draws out there are straight draws, and your Qs reduce the number of them). Especially with the additional outs we picked up, I don't want to pay 2 bets to get to the river.

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I think there was some problem with the hand conversion. Only two players go to the turn with QTip, and one of those is nearly all-in.

I agree, though, that this is not a flop where we want calls. If three people were still in with me on the turn, I think I'd give up and check and see how the action went.

It's more like one and a half players saw the turn with QTip, though, which isn't as bad.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

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Do online players not stack off the way live players do?

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Sometimes. And from what I've been able to gather, the play (if you want to call it that) is particularly popular at 2/4. I think the stacking off generally begins earlier in the hand, though.

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It varies. I played a hand this morning with a guy who had less than 2BB left after the flop and still failed to raise my flop bet with a hand that he was clearly going all the way with.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

Qtip

Having bet the flop and gotten 4 callers,when the turn card comes and i pick up extra outs i would have checked the turn.You might have the best hand but with so many callers it appears someone has something and i really don't want to get raised after picking up extra outs.

I would check-call the turn and depending on the river card check call or bet out if i hit my gutshot.Ice

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

Something got screwed up with the converter on this one. On the turn, I had 2 opponents and one with 2 bb left.

Re: QQ on Interesting Turn
 

Qtip

If there were only two players and one with almost no money,i would have played it the same way you did.Ice