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-   -   Pocket pair on a monotone flop (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=383253)

Rocco 11-22-2005 10:45 AM

Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
Small buy-in tournies ($10 and $20) on Party. Twice today I've raised a good amount on the flop, once with KK and once with JJ, only to see a monotone flop. In both cases I've had the represented colour in my hand, so another card of that colour gives me nut flush (or at least close to).

What's the general line here when it's folded to you. Your remaining stack is equal to or smaller than current pot size. Opponents have you covered, but their stacks would be severly crippled having to face an all-in by you? Do you check and give up or go all-in?

kuro 11-22-2005 11:28 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
You can't pose vague questions like this and expect to get good answers. Poker is all about the details. You need to post the hand histories to get good advice.

Rocco 11-22-2005 12:12 PM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
Sorry about that... Just couldn't get the converter to work. Thought of this as a general question. Still early in the tournament and have been moving tables a few times, so no player reads. On the other hand, I don't think it's a "read" situation...

Will try to detail...

Hand 1 (Blinds 50/100):
Hero's stack: ~1300
Hero's hand J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Action: MP limps, SB completes, Hero raises to 450 from BB and both call
Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pot is 1350 and Hero has ~850 left. Another [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] gives me second nut flush...

Hand 2 (Blinds 25/50):
Hero's stack: ~900
Hero's hand: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Action: 4 limpers to Hero in BB. Hero raises to 250. Two callers.
Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Action: Hero?

Bet? How much? All-in? Check-fold?

Well... Now that I read this through, I realise there was some more information to be given [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

11-22-2005 12:49 PM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
These are very difficult situations. With a 4-way flop after a preflop raise, of course you have to consider your PPs beaten at this point. But you have draws to the second-nut and nut-flush respectively. FWIW, you have back-door straight draws in both hands and can also make a set which may or may not give you the best hand. The real problem is that you are out of position and your stack size dictates that any bet/call/raise from you would pot-commit you (if you aren't already!). Given that I think the best play is pushing and putting your opponents to the test. In a tournament, you have to win these types of situations. The key is that you do have some fold equity with your stack size. That flop is scary and you may get top pair to lay down the best hand. If you get called, you have plenty of outs.

kuro 11-23-2005 01:52 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
Hand 1 is a pretty clear preflop push because of the two limpers and your stack size. Having not pushed preflop, I now push that flop.

Hand 2 I would check the flop with the intentions of check-raising all-in with the best draw. If it gets checked through I likely push the turn.

sledghammer 11-23-2005 05:16 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
At first, both hands, i thought auto push was an easy answer. the only problem is that that causes your opponents to play 'perfect poker.' most aces will call, especially with a draw kicker, while inferior hands will always fold. in the heat of the moment, i think i push both, given the stack sizes. I am not sure if there is any better way for either hand.

Rocco 11-23-2005 08:23 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
[ QUOTE ]
most aces will call, especially with a draw kicker, while inferior hands will always fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting answer which leads me to my opponents plays. I pushed both hands. Now, if I sit in Villians position here I'd see this push as a set, two pair or an ace w/ strong kicker. All these hands would be an automatic push for me since I don't want anyone to draw me out... It could, of course, also be the case that I have a big pocket pair with a flush draw [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

So, in both situations I got called by ace-rag. No draws, except for the guy who had a 2 kicker to the flush. In the first case I rivered the flush while I got no help in the second case. Why do people call with weak aces here? I could just as easy have them beat already... Do you people call w/ ace-rag here? Maybe a stupid question here since most people on this forum would've folded ace-rag preflop...

11-23-2005 10:34 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
Calling your all-in bet with Ace-rag is about as donkish as you get.

RobbyRockets 11-23-2005 10:41 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
It's a little cliche, but people call with any piece of the flop at these lower buyins. You just have to grin and bear it because things will catch up in the "long run". It's still tough to swallow when your hand doesn't improve.

neuroman 11-23-2005 11:22 AM

Re: Pocket pair on a monotone flop
 
[ QUOTE ]
Calling your all-in bet with Ace-rag is about as donkish as you get.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, playing A-rag to a sizeable raise is as donkish as you get. Calling with it here isn't quite as bad.


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