Weak Overcard Play
 

I'm still having a hard time with overcards.....as a beginner I frequently feel
trapped/lost...

BB plays any two hands VPIP has to be like 80 percent....CO is more or less
typical VPIP of 35 or so....neither seem to be particularly aggressive post flop

Pacific Poker .25/.5....Hero is UTG with [A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Preflop:

Hero raises, folds to CO who calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Pot = 6.5 sb
FLOP[7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]](3 players)

BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls

Pot= 4.75 bb
Turn{T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]](3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls

Pot=7.75 bb
River[T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]](3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, Hero folds

This is embarassing right? I should have led out and bet the flop?
I figure that if the overcard outs are good, I've got 6 outs and all I need is
6.7 : 1 to call...the pot gave me 7.5:1 and so the call was good. By the
same arguments, I only had 5.75:1 on the turn and I should have folded.
When the 3 flush appeared on the board and I had nothing, the river fold
was correct, right?

Thanks for any comments.

Jim

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

Pre flop: Good.

Flop: Lead out, you need to continue the aggression from pre-flop to the flop, plus it's likely you still have the best hand. If you check and it comes back to you raise it up, again to show strength.

Turn: You should probably lead out again. Although the board is coordinated enough that if you c/folded that probably wouldn't be as bad check calling.

River: Check/fold is fine.

You need to continue your pre-flop aggression with overcards into the hand. Make the limpers make bad decisions by putting pressure on them. Eventually you will learn what situations and what players will take bottom pair to the river and learn when to slow down, but it is very rarely the flop.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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You need to continue your pre-flop aggression with overcards into the hand.

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This is terrible advice, as a general rule. When your overcards don't connect with the board, and you don't feel that continuted aggression is going to fold anybody out by the turn (which is frequently true at micro-limits) checking is fine.

In this case, I think the check was good (absent a read like I described) on the flop, as was the call...you've got plenty to peel, here, and you're closing the action. Check/fold the turn UI.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

My experience at Party .5/1 is that you will in fact fold out people who don't connect with the flop a lot of the time. Enough times that with only two other people in the pot this is almost always an autobet. When you get 5 or 6 callers and the flop misses you I am more likely to check but not with only 2 callers.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.

Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops

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uh, your equity drops with any hand with any additional callers. this is such a standard raise it's not even funny.

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This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff

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what the hell?

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Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.


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yeah this just about never happens.

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River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it

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rofl

0/4

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

Lead the flop. I don't want people to know I have overcards so I play the flop the same as I would an overpair. Checking the flop says, "Hey guys I have overcards and whiffed with them".

After that check/fold the turn. You have a very weak draw and the pot is no where near big enough to fight for.

If I am HU by the turn and have a very specific read that the villan I am HU with calls flops with nothing and folds turns, I probably bet the turn as the last money I put in UI

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.

Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.

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way too aggressive, always raise AQo UTG preflop

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
My experience at Party .5/1 is that you will in fact fold out people who don't connect with the flop a lot of the time. Enough times that with only two other people in the pot this is almost always an autobet. When you get 5 or 6 callers and the flop misses you I am more likely to check but not with only 2 callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe Bizzaro PartyPoker. I almost never see anybody fold to a single bet from a PFR on the flop. That said, it really is read-dependent, and it's close. I was mostly criticizing the "this should be an auto-bet" sentiment...you shouldn't ALWAYS bet ANYTHING.

And, to the poster that said you should bet because you don't want them thinking you have overcards, a) that presumes that they're thinking about what you have, and b) that they aren't going to assume that you have overcards, regardless, because that way they can continue with the hand. I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

The flop is a must bet and the turn is still a pretty good place to bet. We could very well have the best hand and have some outs to improve if we don't.

Edit: When I say the turn isn't a bad place to bet, I meant that in the case that you had bet the flop and only been called.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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the flush card hits it's time to represent it,

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That's funny [censored].

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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... I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.


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what needs to happen more than 60% for betting the flop to be correct?

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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[ QUOTE ]
... I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.


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what needs to happen more than 60% for betting the flop to be correct?

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I was responding to the guy that said you want to bet the flop so that people will think you don't have overcards. My feeling is that the majority of the time at these limits that's a crap reason for betting because in order for the bet to be correct FOR THAT REASON you are presuming what I said you'd have to presume.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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The flop is a must bet

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I'm reluctant to call anything short of a made hand a "must" bet against jackasses like these:

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BB plays any two hands VPIP has to be like 80 percent....CO is more or less
typical VPIP of 35 or so....neither seem to be particularly aggressive post flop

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Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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... I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.


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what needs to happen more than 60% for betting the flop to be correct?

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I was responding to the guy that said you want to bet the flop so that people will think you don't have overcards. My feeling is that the majority of the time at these limits that's a crap reason for betting because in order for the bet to be correct FOR THAT REASON you are presuming what I said you'd have to presume.

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i get that you're saying they're going to find reasons to "continue in the hand," but i'm wondering where you got the 60% number.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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And, to the poster that said you should bet because you don't want them thinking you have overcards, a) that presumes that they're thinking about what you have, and b) that they aren't going to assume that you have overcards, regardless, because that way they can continue with the hand. I don't think either of these things are going to be true > 60% of the time.

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I'm not disagreeing with you that it's really not a great reason to bet this flop. I still think this particular flop is a bet. But could you please give a better explanation of your statement above. As I said I'm not disagreeing I'm just having trouble grasping what you're trying to say there and I want to understand your reasoning against my "meta-game" continuation bet.

Perhaps my position could be beter explained by saying I want them to put me on overcards this situation and on subsequent situations where I have an overpair to a similar board.

I'm not advocating that people at this limit think about peoples hands much. I don't make this play so much for the players that don't pay attention to my hands, since I will get money from them in the long run regardless. I make it for the few players who do pay attention so I can get more of their money when they're in a pot with me.

I think checking everytime you miss overcards after raising Preflop just turns your hand face up. I also think betting into a lot of micro players everytime you miss is a leak. But I think against 2 I bet this flop. But usually give up on the turn UI.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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i'm wondering where you got the 60% number.

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Oh...I made it up [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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I want to understand your reasoning against my "meta-game" continuation bet.

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[DavidC paragraph]

I am coming more and more to the conclusion that at nano- and micro-limits any justification for an action that includes the words "meta game" is completely specious. First, the vast majority of the players you're up against aren't paying any attention to what you're doing or devoting any attention to what you might be holding. Second, if you happen to sit down with one that is trying to pay attention his sample size is going to be so small that he's not going to have anything beyond a default read on what your actions mean. Third, if you have a player at your table advanced enough to be able to pay attention, it's pretty likely that he's multi-tabling and so playing ABC and relying on PA-HUD stats for his reads. And finally, as I said, it's irrelevant most of the time anyway, because even if he says to himself, "Self, these are the actions of a player holding an overpair!" he's going to follow that right up with, "But, he might also be playing overcards strongly, so I'm going to call down with my pair of threes," because THAT'S what he really wants to do, and so he's going to find a reason that will allow him to do it, if he's got a hand that he played against your preflop raise.

[/DavidC paragraph]

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

grunching -

i think the pre-flop play is fine. I think i'd do a continuation bet on the flop, then shut down if raised (call / fold unimproved).

I'm not sure you can count six outs here - two complete a flush (potentially).

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.

Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.

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do you think AQo is such a good multiway hand to let people in cheaply who can beat you? raise preflop. AQo is best against few players.

semibluff? do you think a guy with 80% vpip has much chance of folding? the aim of a semibluff is to get people to fold, and have outs if they don't fold.

your strategy is much better suited to NL than limit I think, especially the representing the flush bit. people will not fold for one bet when you represent in my experience at this level.

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to understand your reasoning against my "meta-game" continuation bet.

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[DavidC paragraph]

I am coming more and more to the conclusion that at nano- and micro-limits any justification for an action that includes the words "meta game" is completely specious. First, the vast majority of the players you're up against aren't paying any attention to what you're doing or devoting any attention to what you might be holding. Second, if you happen to sit down with one that is trying to pay attention his sample size is going to be so small that he's not going to have anything beyond a default read on what your actions mean. Third, if you have a player at your table advanced enough to be able to pay attention, it's pretty likely that he's multi-tabling and so playing ABC and relying on PA-HUD stats for his reads. And finally, as I said, it's irrelevant most of the time anyway, because even if he says to himself, "Self, these are the actions of a player holding an overpair!" he's going to follow that right up with, "But, he might also be playing overcards strongly, so I'm going to call down with my pair of threes," because THAT'S what he really wants to do, and so he's going to find a reason that will allow him to do it, if he's got a hand that he played against your preflop raise.

[/DavidC paragraph]

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Understood and agreed. Thanx

Re: Weak Overcard Play
 

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AQo is very tough UTG, maybe just call and hope for a short handed flop, raising can get you into trouble, if there are 2 callers even, your equity drops, and you'r out of position.

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You completely contradict yourself here. We shouldn't raise, since they might call and we're OOP in a multiway pot. So we limp, and pray that they don't limp also. The people who would have called our raise: will they call when we limp? What about the ones that wouldn't call a raise, but will limp?

Raising AQo UTG is completely standard. Knowing how to play it unimproved and out of position is the only prerequisite.

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Flop: This flop isn't too bad for AQo, your overcard outs are probably still good. I would bet and raise semibluff, protect those overcard outs aggressively.


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Protect our outs from what? Look, this *is* a bad flop for AQo: that's why advice is being sought. Q38 rainbow: that's a good flop for AQo. (unless you limped UTG, and let 33 follow suit).

There's nothing remotely semi about the recommended bet-raise bluff.

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Turn: Bet out again, keep in mind you're drawing dead to a set, but you may get a hand like 55 to fold here.

River: when the flush card hits it's time to represent it, you may get someone who has a 9 or 7 to fold. Do not show the hand down, either re-raise or fold if it is raised back to you. If it is capped fold. If you get called you're toast, but that's the danger in AQo UTG.

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This kind of advice is gonna get people burned. You're recommending doing crazy and expensive things in a small pot that we can only rarely pick up. Flailing around like a schizo with a chainsaw isn't going to win pots.

Also, you *really* can't represent the flush if you've bet-raised the flop and bet the turn. Honestly, there are a fair few words in your post, but the crib notes would read: "bet and raise, because they might fold." Thing is, they probably won't, and you're spewing a lot of chips to try to make them.