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The last stand of the American Republic....
Great article here....
My fav. quote from the article pretty much starts it out... [ QUOTE ] "The much-belated exposure of George W. Bush's warrantless spy program has forced the Bush-Cheney Regime to openly declare what they have long implied -- and enacted -- in secret: that the president is above the law, a military autocrat with unlimited powers, beyond the restraint or supervision of any other institution or branch of government. Outed as rank deceivers, perverters of the law and rapists of the Constitution, the Bush gang has decided that their best defense -- their only defense, really -- is a belligerent offense. "Yeah, we broke the law," they now say; "so what? We'll break it again whenever we want to, because law don't stick to our Big Boss Man. What are you going to do about it, chump?" - [/ QUOTE ] On the other hand...it makes an interesting point - if the American public is willing to take such an obvious failed human being and re-elect him and poo-poo his repeated violations of our civil rights, maybe we do deserve to be slaves to his dictatorial machine. At least you guys who voted for him do. RB |
excellent post
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Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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such an obvious failed human being [/ QUOTE ] He is the former governor of Texas and two-time President of the United States. What have you accomplished? [ QUOTE ] poo-poo his repeated violations of our civil rights, [/ QUOTE ] Please explain, in detail, how any of your civil rights have been violated. Note that I'm not talking about "our" civil rights. I'm talking about YOUR civil rights. What "right" did you have before Dubya's first term began that you do not have anymore? [ QUOTE ] dictatorial machine. [/ QUOTE ] People who have lived under a real dictatorship would laugh at you... even more than I am laughing right now. Are we living in the same country? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
[ QUOTE ]
Great article here.... My fav. quote from the article pretty much starts it out... [ QUOTE ] "The much-belated exposure of George W. Bush's warrantless spy program has forced the Bush-Cheney Regime to openly declare what they have long implied -- and enacted -- in secret: that the president is above the law, a military autocrat with unlimited powers, beyond the restraint or supervision of any other institution or branch of government. Outed as rank deceivers, perverters of the law and rapists of the Constitution, the Bush gang has decided that their best defense -- their only defense, really -- is a belligerent offense. "Yeah, we broke the law," they now say; "so what? We'll break it again whenever we want to, because law don't stick to our Big Boss Man. What are you going to do about it, chump?" - [/ QUOTE ] On the other hand...it makes an interesting point - if the American public is willing to take such an obvious failed human being and re-elect him and poo-poo his repeated violations of our civil rights, maybe we do deserve to be slaves to his dictatorial machine. At least you guys who voted for him do. RB [/ QUOTE ] This is a rather embarrasing assertion by you for the above poster's explanations. For me, you don't even have to explain how your personal civil rights have been violate, it will suffice me if you explain how civil rights in general have been violated and how America is worse of because of it? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Keep one thing in mind, the phone numbers were found in cofiscated computers, phones and other devices seized from terrorists.
Had the President NOT acted on the material obtained from terrorists and there WAS an attack that killed friends, family or other Americans would you be outraged that he didn't act? "You cannot make a poor man rich by making a rich man poor" |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
"Please explain, in detail, how any of your civil rights have been violated. Note that I'm not talking about "our" civil rights. I'm talking about YOUR civil rights. What "right" did you have before Dubya's first term began that you do not have anymore?" That is exactly how people in Mousilini's Italy thought. You should move to China so the rest of us can keep our freedom. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Are we living in the same country? [/ QUOTE ] No. There is a different America for red states and blue states. There is a different America for Republicans and Democrats. There is a different America for men and women. There is a different America for adults and children. There is a different America for Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Taoist, Wiccan, and Buddist. There is a different America for Black, White, Asian and Hispanic. There is a different America for rich and poor. There is a different America for any idealogue who wants to make one for the advancement of their own power and influence. There is different America for everyone. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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That is exactly how people in Mousilini's Italy thought. You should move to China so the rest of us can keep our freedom. [/ QUOTE ] no no no. You are making a claim, so you are going to justify it. None of this "that's what so and so said in such and such country. Get out of America!" You say your civil rights have been violated. Tell me how. If you can't, then they haven't. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
It's not the results, it's the intent that counts.
Only this is the first debate it sticks out to me that liberals are using that one to attack someone, not simply try to defend their actions. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Once they are being violated, then its too late.
I am going to pre-emptively keep it from happening. If you live in Florida your right to vote for president was taken away. If you vote on a diebold machine, your right to vote does not exist. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Once they are being violated, then its too late. [/ QUOTE ] So your rights haven't actually been violated? But you are sure that someone intends to violate them......sooooo...... [ QUOTE ] I am going to pre-emptively keep it from happening. [/ QUOTE ] The last Democrat I heard of who could premptively do anything was John F Kennedy. This would be quite the feat. Tell me, how are you going to preemptively keep it from happening. Do tell. This should be good. [ QUOTE ] If you live in Florida your right to vote for president was taken away. [/ QUOTE ] By whom? And how? Election Fraud? Voter Intimidation? Please. [ QUOTE ] If you vote on a diebold machine, your right to vote does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] Those same diebold machines elected Bill Clinton and no one said they were broken then. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Keep one thing in mind, the phone numbers were found in cofiscated computers, phones and other devices seized from terrorists. Had the President NOT acted on the material obtained from terrorists and there WAS an attack that killed friends, family or other Americans would you be outraged that he didn't act? [/ QUOTE ] This is not the problem that anyone has. The use of wire taps is not the issue- the use of wire taps without judicial oversight is the issue. All the agency (whatever agency it was) had to do was go to a judge, and tell that judge what they wanted to do. This has been done a thousand times before. Why did Bush feel that he had the authority to ignore standard procedure in these cases (since it was his order that allowed them to circumvent it). |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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It's not the results, it's the intent that counts. [/ QUOTE ] The intent is to stop terrorists from killing Americans. Period. Federal law enforcement agencies don't give a crap about the fight you're having with your girlfriend or the story your friend is telling you about the last time he was drunk. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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If you live in Florida your right to vote for president was taken away. If you vote on a diebold machine, your right to vote does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] For a third time I'll ask you for specific citation of credible proof beyond any doubt of yet another one of your ridiculous claims that persons' rights to vote for president have been stripped or denied. Specific proof. And for a third time I suspect my query will go conveniently unanswered. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
And let us not forget, if the President had not pursued wire tapping on the numbers he got from #3 Al Queada mans laptop and the owner of one of those numbers had carried out an attack, there would be impeachment talk for not doing his job. So you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I do not envy the job.
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Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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[ QUOTE ] If you live in Florida your right to vote for president was taken away. If you vote on a diebold machine, your right to vote does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] For a third time I'll ask you for specific citation of proof beyond any doubt of yet another one of your ridiculous claims that persons' rights to vote for president have been stripped or denied. Specific proof. And for a third time I suspect my query will go conveniently unanswered. [/ QUOTE ] 1. The Supreme Court stopped the recount. 2. Do you deny there were people in Florida whose ballot had the "hanging chad" and whose votes did not count for fear of electing the man who actually won the election? Anyway, why do you need proof to see George Bush is a moron? If it looks like a dog and it smells like a dog . . . ? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
I dont think he's a moron. I think he's trained to act simple to appeal to the likes or billUCP, exmarriner, bluffthis et al.
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Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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[ QUOTE ] It's not the results, it's the intent that counts. [/ QUOTE ] The intent is to stop terrorists from killing Americans. Period. Federal law enforcement agencies don't give a crap about the fight you're having with your girlfriend or the story your friend is telling you about the last time he was drunk. [/ QUOTE ] But they might "intend" to care about the fight I'm having with my girlfriend. Didn't you read 1984? Either way, your thinking that they "don't care" about this bothers me anyway. Why are we even putting federal law enforcement on this hand? - it should be waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy out of their pre-flop range. In fact, it should be a different game. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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And for a third time I suspect my query will go conveniently unanswered. [/ QUOTE ] Your query will go unanswered because no such answer exists. All of the race warlords were quick to claim discrimination and disenfranchisement, yet there has not been a single lawsuit. In Florida you do not need to even bring your voter registration nor your ID to vote. As long as you are at the right precinct and your name is on the list, you're gold. Hell... even DEAD PEOPLE got to vote for John Kerry in the last election... What were the live peoples' excuses??????? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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[ QUOTE ] If you live in Florida your right to vote for president was taken away. If you vote on a diebold machine, your right to vote does not exist. [/ QUOTE ] For a third time I'll ask you for specific citation of credible proof beyond any doubt of yet another one of your ridiculous claims that persons' rights to vote for president have been stripped or denied. Specific proof. [/ QUOTE ] Are you serious? There's plenty of documented cases of people, in florida and elsewhere, that have been improperly denied their vote. In florida specifically, many people were removed because they had names similar to some convicted felons. Here's a story from 2004: http://news.tbo.com/news/MGB7TQUZ5VD.html [ QUOTE ] Hundreds of people wrongly removed from voter rolls in 2000, who never committed felonies or whose rights had been restored, may not yet have been put back on the rolls. [/ QUOTE ] Spend five seconds on google and you can find a lot more documentation. Note that while right-wingers tend to attempt to manipulate voter demographics by disqualifying voters, left-wingers tend to attempt to manipulate voter demographics by making it easier for unqualified people to get to vote. Assuming you can accurately identify qualified voters you think will vote for your opponent and get them wrongly disqualified or that you can accurately identify unqualified people that will vote for your side and get them improperly snuck into the voting booth, both tactics have the same *net* effect. The difference is that one prevents specific, identifiable people from casting votes, while the other cancels out votes of legitimate voters, but does it in a way that doesn't produce a specific, identifiable victim. Is one more reprehensible than the other? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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So you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. I do not envy the job. [/ QUOTE ] Nor do I, but it's the sign of a good leader to accept the consequences of saving lives rather than the consequences of watching them be lost. Odd that the mass media wasn't bitching about former Presidents Clinton, Carter, and others doing the same thing. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Anyway, why do you need proof to see George Bush is a moron? [/ QUOTE ] On top of failing to cite any credible evidence whatsoever to my query (the only thing I requested in my post), you have invalidated any opinion you might have on the matter by completely failing to address the target of the actual query itself and rather redirected your post into unintelligent (and I do mean unintelligent) name calling. You've further embarrassed yourself by completely misusing and muddling a commonly called upon maxim to conclude your off the cuff post. You win today's Billy Madison prize: http://www.rsthree.com/orly/billy-madison.jpg [ QUOTE ] Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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This is not the problem that anyone has. The use of wire taps is not the issue- the use of wire taps without judicial oversight is the issue. All the agency (whatever agency it was) had to do was go to a judge, and tell that judge what they wanted to do. This has been done a thousand times before. Why did Bush feel that he had the authority to ignore standard procedure in these cases (since it was his order that allowed them to circumvent it). [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. 100%. Supposedly they are just listening to terrorists. Yeah right. And your social security number won't be used for anything else. We are here from the government and we are here to help. The mercedes is paid for.... |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Pvn,
Citing a Tampa Bay Online story about a felon who can no longer vote because of a properly enforced law doesn't in any way whatsoever qualify the statement "If you live in Florida, you have no right to vote". Nor does citing a story of how there may have been (and the article does emphasize that) some hiccups in the transition of enforcing this widely accepted rule which has possibly temporarily confused some legitimate people (whose party affiliation is, obviously, unknown) with felons, qualify that statement in any way. [ QUOTE ] Spend five seconds on google and you can find a lot more documentation. [/ QUOTE ] You can also spend five seconds googling about all of the rapes, murders, and cannibalism that was occurring in the SuperDome at the height of Hurricane Katrina. Do you accept this as infallible proof? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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1. The Supreme Court stopped the 3rd or 4th recount after Al Gore lost all the previous ones. [/ QUOTE ] fyp and... Gore would have lost anyway... [ QUOTE ] Do you deny there were people in Florida whose ballot had the "hanging chad" and whose votes did not count for fear of electing the man who actually won the election? [/ QUOTE ] Um... do you deny that "hanging chads" are not legal votes and therefore cannot and should not be counted? [ QUOTE ] Anyway, why do you need proof to see George Bush is a moron? [/ QUOTE ] Are you really so ignorant? Do you really think a complete moron can be elected President twice? You: "Yes! He stole the election.... twice!" Ok - do you really think a complete moron can steal an election... twice? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
The "Florida votes didn't count" thing is overdone. And wrong.
Honestly, with the idiots down there I think the country might be better off if they officially didn't count. Between Jebidiah and the people who can't read a punch card -- well, that is Amerikkka. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Just because its on the internet doesnt make it true.
More people Voted for Al Gore (including in Florida), but George's brother made sure he won. Pretty simple. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Didn't you read 1984? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. It was a very entertaining work of fiction. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Just because its on the internet doesnt make it true. More people Voted for Al Gore (including in Florida), but George's brother made sure he won. Pretty simple. [/ QUOTE ] I think you meant to say........ ---- More people Voted for Al Gore (including in Florida), but George's brother made sure he won. Pretty simple. Just because its on the internet doesnt make it true. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Why would 2 lawyers from the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations "unlikely" sources?
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Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Please explain, in detail, how any of your civil rights have been violated. Note that I'm not talking about "our" civil rights. I'm talking about YOUR civil rights. [/ QUOTE ] This is entirely the point. Its not about whether any of MY rights have been violated, personally. If the rights of one can be violated, the rights of ALL can be violated. (First they came for the gypsies, then the homosexuals...). The right of American citizens not to be detained without recourse to due process and the legal system has already been violated. The right of unreasonable search and seizure has been violated. (and NO Clinton and Carter did it within the rules of FISA, not by fiat). Less than 10 years ago, half of this country was up in arms, saying no President was above the law. The rule of law applies to everyone, in reference to the Clinton impeachment over perjury. But this adminstration has thrown two elements of the Bill of Rights out the window, is hiding a traitor who outed, or orchestrated the outing of, a CIA agent, and yet those same people are not only quiet about these laws being broken, but are bending over backwards to offer excuses for these actions. While much of the sloganeering and posturing by both sides has been overly strident, there are some simple truths here learned by every child who makes it through basic Civics classes. Our civil rights are being slowly degraded. If we don't stand up for them now, where will we be in five years? 10 years? 20 years? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Pvn, Citing a Tampa Bay Online story about a felon who can no longer vote because of a properly enforced law doesn't in any way whatsoever qualify the statement "If you live in Florida, you have no right to vote". [/ QUOTE ] I'm not addressing the "you have no right to vote" statement, since I didn't make it. I am addressing your statement that there's no citations of actual people being denied their vote. The felon that is the focus of the story isn't the part I was citing. I'm not sure what kind of "proof" will satisfy you. There are lawsuit settlements of public record where various state agencies have *admitted* that people were wrongfully removed. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Why would 2 lawyers from the Reagan and Bush 41 administrations "unlikely" sources? [/ QUOTE ] Source = New York Times |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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I am addressing your statement that there's no citations of actual people being denied their vote. [/ QUOTE ] I made no such statement. I expect more from you. I requested specific credible evidence to qualify the statement "If you live in Florida or if you use a diebold voting machine, you have no right to vote for President". |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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[ QUOTE ] Keep one thing in mind, the phone numbers were found in cofiscated computers, phones and other devices seized from terrorists. Had the President NOT acted on the material obtained from terrorists and there WAS an attack that killed friends, family or other Americans would you be outraged that he didn't act? [/ QUOTE ] This is not the problem that anyone has. The use of wire taps is not the issue- the use of wire taps without judicial oversight is the issue. All the agency (whatever agency it was) had to do was go to a judge, and tell that judge what they wanted to do. This has been done a thousand times before. Why did Bush feel that he had the authority to ignore standard procedure in these cases (since it was his order that allowed them to circumvent it). [/ QUOTE ] During wartime, (which we are in under the authorization of congress) as Commander in Chief he has authority to do so. As to your question, I can imagine that it had something to do with a concern for the information getting out. As far as oversight goes, the senate intelligence committee knew about it. Who did Clinton get permission from to use satellites to spy on the folks out west? "Gun control is being able to hit your target" |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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As far as oversight goes, the senate intelligence committee knew about it. [/ QUOTE ] That makes me feel much better. The senate intelligence committee (oxymoron?) was informed that the president authorized warrantless wiretaps on an unspecified number of instances. Yeah, civil liberties are being protected. Thank God (or is it PC to thank the intelligent designer these days?) |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Just because its on the internet doesnt make it true. More people Voted for Al Gore (including in Florida), but George's brother made sure he won. Pretty simple. [/ QUOTE ] Apparently we have a conspiracy theorist on the boards. Are you aware that the New York Crimes, Atlanta Journal Constipation and several other media sources conducted a recount on their own and came up with the same results? |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
Each one of those talking points has been throughly de-bunked.
We are not at war. The members of the intel committee were not allowed to say anything about it, althought several wrote letters of protest, which are classifed. Clinton's only crime was lying about getting head. |
Re: The last stand of the American Republic....
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Please explain, in detail, how any of your civil rights have been violated. Note that I'm not talking about "our" civil rights. I'm talking about YOUR civil rights. What "right" did you have before Dubya's first term began that you do not have anymore? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] When they came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat. When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out; I was not a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out. [/ QUOTE ] |
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