Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

What hands do you open raise from MP?

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

Thanks for creating this. I found the decisions here much more difficult for some reason.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

Most of these I will or will not raise depending on table conditions.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

time to have my inconsistencies pointed out...
T9s - raise a fair amount.
JTs - raise
98s - fold
A8o-A6o - fold
KTo - raise
K9o - fold
QJo - raise
A8s - raise
A7s - raise
A6s - fold
66 - raise
55 - raise some, but usually fold
77 - raise
44 - fold
K9s - raise
Q9s - raise some, fold a lot. basically I'm not sure.
J9s - raise
JTo - fold but perhaps I should start raising.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

Am I a grumpy dick if I point out again that I think these polls are wrong headed and probably encourage bad ABC play when the most important think about 6 max is the players at the table?

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

I need to start raising t9s and K9s. Thanks Wynton for the suggestion of posting this. I'll post a CO and Button one in a few days after we get bored of these two polls.

Krishan

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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Am I a grumpy dick if I point out again that I think these polls are wrong headed and probably encourage bad ABC play when the most important think about 6 max is the players at the table?

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Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

no, but if you sit down at 100 tables with 1000 unknowns against whom you have zero hands, you need a good 'basic strategy'. mason talks about this in poker essays, and admits that 'basic strategy' is a misnomer, but don't you think having default plays helps?

I wholeheartedly agree that reads can sway things in many different directions obviously

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

i think T9s is a great hand from MP and youre missing alot of equity by folding it. J9s should also be raised imo. it seems that Q9s would be ranked lower than J9s but im not sure why that would be true. a queen kicker or a pair of queens is stronger than a pair of jacks. i really dont think straight value matters much between a 1 gapper and a 2 gapper. high card strength is more important. however, it is true that more queens that outkick you will enter a raised pot then jacks that outkick you which is a good reason why J9s might be better than Q9s, but i still think the high card strength is stronger.

i think its reasonable that alot of players want to fold 55 preflop and i wouldnt encourage them to play it if they dont feel comfortable doing so. i think the value of 55 in this situation depends greatly on your ability to save bets postflop when against better hands. youre often in a reverse implied odds situation with these small pairs because against alot of players they checkfolds when they miss but when they flop a pair they check call and you are forced to invest another bet on the turn. a good player should easily be able to show profit with 55 in these situations however, especially in games where the players behind him arent likely to 3bet him liberally.

i really dont think you can show profit raising A8o from MP in most situations. i remember baronzeus posted a hand in which he raised A8o from MP and alot of people said it was a bad move including me. i think there are times when A8o from MP has alot of value and it does seem a little odd that A9o is an easy raise and A8o is an easy fold. when i pick up A9o from MP i often feel that it has alot of value and makes for a very profitable raise. if thats the case then how can A8o be an easy fold and an unprofitable raise? i think there are times when A8o will show profit and i need to figure out those times.


T9s- raise
98s- i usually raise this unless i have a good reason not to
A8o- fold
KTo- raise
K9o- fold
QJo- raise
A7s- raise
A6s- i raise this alot of the time depending
55- raise
44- i sometimes raise this but i would recommend most people fold it
K9s- raise
Q9s- raise
J9s- raise
JTo- fold

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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Am I a grumpy dick if I point out again that I think these polls are wrong headed and probably encourage bad ABC play when the most important think about 6 max is the players at the table?

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Everything depends. But it's nice to know defaults so you can shade your depends correctly based on the table.

Krishan

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

There really is a use to them. By looking at what people say are "default" plays against unknowns, I'm getting an idea whether or not I place a different value on particular hands, which in turn can lead to a reevaluation.

Plainly, everyone agrees that once you have some kind of read or info on the players, things can change substantially.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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Am I a grumpy dick if I point out again that I think these polls are wrong headed and probably encourage bad ABC play when the most important think about 6 max is the players at the table?

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why the question mark at the end? its not needed your right.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

but does it make him a grumpy dick. inquiring minds want to know.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

there needs to be a question mark because the sentence started with "Am I".

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

btw dids i think youre wrong about hating these polls. we should all be astute enough to know that most hands arent profitable 100% of the time and most hands arent unprofitable 100% of the time. however, it takes a great amount of skill to really be able to determine when certain hands become more profitable then others and that skill involves alot of understanding of postflop concepts. these polls and preflop guidelines fix alot of preflop problems for good players who lack ability to understand these concepts. in the long run everybody should be trying to develop into a strong enough player to come to their own conclusions but in the meantime these guidelines will make those people alot of money who arent there yet.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

With A8o at this point 9 ppl said raise and 10 fold, but with KTo 15 raise and 4 fold. Even more interesting A7s 16 raise 3 fold, but A7o 2 raise 17 fold.

oh and I would like to play against the 1 person that would fold 66.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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btw dids i think youre wrong about hating these polls. we should all be astute enough to know that most hands arent profitable 100% of the time and most hands arent unprofitable 100% of the time. however, it takes a great amount of skill to really be able to determine when certain hands become more profitable then others and that skill involves alot of understanding of postflop concepts. these polls and preflop guidelines fix alot of preflop problems for good players who lack ability to understand these concepts. in the long run everybody should be trying to develop into a strong enough player to come to their own conclusions but in the meantime these guidelines will make those people alot of money who arent there yet.

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Polls encourage a quick, cursory thought process in response to what are difficult questions. They tend to not provide much content and do give a lot of people the wrong impression about preflop play.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

whats interesting to me is yours and alot of ther players lack of appreciation of suitedness. also interesting is your apparent value of ace high in comparison to KTo. i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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whats interesting to me is yours and alot of ther players lack of appreciation of suitedness. also interesting is your apparent value of ace high in comparison to KTo. i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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All very true. Nice post.

Krishan

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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whats interesting to me is yours and alot of ther players lack of appreciation of suitedness. also interesting is your apparent value of ace high in comparison to KTo. i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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Please don't ever stop posting.

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Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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whats interesting to me is yours and alot of ther players lack of appreciation of suitedness. also interesting is your apparent value of ace high in comparison to KTo. i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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All very true. Nice post.

Krishan

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Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

no, I don’t always appreciate A2o more then KTo, there are other factors that apply. In addition I do not lack appreciation of suitedness, I was making a point of the voting discrepancy.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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i guess you value A2o more than KTo also? alot of ace high hands have significant reverse implied odds but most people dont seem to realize that. they just punch these hands into the pokerstove/twodimes applications and base their values strictly on hot and cold preflop equity.

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You have a point, I agree (anyone who would value a2o over kto in this position is insane). But hands like A7s, and to a lesser extent KTo, have a distinct advantage over hands like JTs and T8s in these 2 and 3 way pots that is 'realized' occasionally. I enjoy checking behind the river and having my ace high be good.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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btw dids i think youre wrong about hating these polls. we should all be astute enough to know that most hands arent profitable 100% of the time and most hands arent unprofitable 100% of the time. however, it takes a great amount of skill to really be able to determine when certain hands become more profitable then others and that skill involves alot of understanding of postflop concepts. these polls and preflop guidelines fix alot of preflop problems for good players who lack ability to understand these concepts. in the long run everybody should be trying to develop into a strong enough player to come to their own conclusions but in the meantime these guidelines will make those people alot of money who arent there yet.

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Polls encourage a quick, cursory thought process in response to what are difficult questions. They tend to not provide much content and do give a lot of people the wrong impression about preflop play.

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FWIW they advocate a similar approach in HPFAP, where they admit that each individual hand has a value dependant on situation, image, etc, but 'for a beginner they no of no better approach' than to memorize hand groups, and to know that if the game is typical you can raise groups X-Z in middle position.

I'm glad they had the groups, cause I wasn't ready for understanding each hand for itself but I liked money

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

as i default i fold A7o A6o and 44, raise the rest... well K9o more than half the time at least, i think.

err i also fold JTo

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

also keep in mind that around 7 months ago i just began playing shorthanded at 5/10 coming from a full ring background. i really didnt understand preflop starting hand values and actually used a starting hand guideline to figure out what hands to play. i ended up with a strong winrate but it wouldnt have been nearly as good if i didnt have the guidelines to look to or have twoplustwo to tell me what hands i should be playing. the point is that the ultimate goal should be to understand what makes starting hands profitable but when you arent good enough to come to your own conclusions these starting hand charts will save/make you alot of money.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

I'm so glad you said that...should I start raising JTo in MP?

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

i really dont think JTo has value from MP. ive only recently started raising QJo from MP and i only did that because everyone told me it was profitable. im still a little skeptical about that but i think theyre right. unfortunately ill never actually know, i can only hope i become good enough to know when QJo is profitable and when it isnt.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

yeah similar to your thoughts re: A8o and A9o, I consider J9s a raise with a healthy amount of value from MP but didn't like JTo a whole lot, I was thinking either I overvalue suitedness or undervalue JTo. maybe those two plays are consistent after all

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

ive always suspected that suitedness has alot of value. some people dont agree. i think one day ill have some profound insights on the matter, right now i dont.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

its very very button and co dependent. if they are 50/20 then i am chucking a lot of these. if they are 22/17 then i am raising nearly all.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

You're not over-valuing the suitedness. That's correct. In steal situations your cards are often just playing back-up. The actualy theft and folding equity that your raise buys is where most of your profit comes from. Then, when you start playing with your cards most of your profit in limit hold'em comes from your opponent's mistakes. When you hold a strong draw you can push your hand hard by semi-bluffing profitably and giving him the option to make even more mistakes.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

I think these polls are interesting not because of the results they give but instead for the discussion they foster.

I would never consider folding JTo from MP and it is interesting to me that folks do that. On the opposite end I will muck K9s from same and not think twice. Interesting to see the whole landscape...

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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btw dids i think youre wrong about hating these polls. we should all be astute enough to know that most hands arent profitable 100% of the time and most hands arent unprofitable 100% of the time. however, it takes a great amount of skill to really be able to determine when certain hands become more profitable then others and that skill involves alot of understanding of postflop concepts. these polls and preflop guidelines fix alot of preflop problems for good players who lack ability to understand these concepts. in the long run everybody should be trying to develop into a strong enough player to come to their own conclusions but in the meantime these guidelines will make those people alot of money who arent there yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Polls encourage a quick, cursory thought process in response to what are difficult questions. They tend to not provide much content and do give a lot of people the wrong impression about preflop play.

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I understand the need for default plays obviously, I guess it's just that like jason mentions, I'm not sure this is a optimal way to talk about it.

Moreover, I think you can have this conversation more generally. For instance, vs. unknowns I tend to have more conservative openning standards. I don't think that really means I'm taking a binary point of view to how I play T9s though.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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I would never consider folding JTo from MP


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whether its wrong to fold JTo from MP i dont know, but this is DEFINITELY not optimal.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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I would never consider folding JTo from MP


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whether its wrong to fold JTo from MP i dont know, but this is DEFINITELY not optimal.

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What's the difference between being wrong and not being optimal?

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

my point is that it might be right for him to open JTo a big portion of the time, that i dont know. for him to never consider folding it is definitely wrong. if i just quoted what he said and said "this is wrong" then that might imply to some people that im saying he shouldnt be raising JTo from there as a standard. im not saying that.

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

I can't think of a situation where open-folding JTo from MP would make sense in a short handed game. Maybe I am thinking about this incorrectly.

That's why this thread is so interesting to me. <font color="yellow"> </font>

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

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I can't think of a situation where open-folding JTo from MP would make sense in a short handed game. Maybe I am thinking about this incorrectly.

That's why this thread is so interesting to me. <font color="yellow"> </font>

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I never openraise JTo from MP. Ever. (I probably should sometimes but I think folding as a default is much better than opening as a default)

There was a thread were BK opened in Hijack in a full ring game and he was told that is incorrect. If it's bad in full ring, it's worse in shorthand.

Krishan

Re: Open Raise from MP (Poll)
 

i dont agree with that krishan. i understand that youre saying its worse to open those hands in a full ring game due to bunching effect, but in full ring games players are not as good in shorthanded situations as they are in 6max games. i also think your success in stealing the blinds rises in full ring games where players are tighter. in shorthanded games these days successfully stealing the blinds is a rare occurence.