$5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Reads:

MP is 87.5 / 12.5 / 1.11 after only 8 hands
UTG is fairly solid at 26.79 / 17.9 / 1.82 after 56
BB is 75 / 0 / 1.14 after 8 hands.

So clearly I don't know much about anybody except UTG.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">I call with position after everybody and their mother limps. Too lose?</font>

Flop: (8.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

<font color="blue">There's just over 11 SB in the pot when it gets to me, and I'm getting just over 5.5:1 on a just under 5:1 draw - so I call. 2nd time it comes around I still have odds and the pot is gargantuan, so I call again.</font>

Turn: (12.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

<font color="blue">Here's where I'm not sure. I call in hopes of BB and UTG overcalling, which they do. I thought I could get more on the turn &amp; river by UTG and BB overcalling in this huge pot instead of MP slowing down and just calling a river bet after I raise on the turn.</font>

River: (16.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

<font color="blue">Doh... overcall plan worked on the turn but not the river. Was this the time to put in a raise?</font>

Final Pot: 18.20 BB

Thanks.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Fold pre-flop. You're dominated by quite a few limping hands.

You MUST raise the turn. Look at all that flop action, do you really think they're going anywhere? Also, you need to give someone a chance to 3-bet so you can cap.

You didn't make nearly as much money with this hand as you should have.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Fold preflop. Raise turn, raise river.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

I fold preflop, I have limped this before, but only when it´s pretty much perfect. It isn´t when solid limps UTG.

I´d probably 3bet the flop for value/free card/deception.

The turn is a very easy raise, considering all the action on the flop, the potsize and the board. You aren´t really looking to have people coming along for one bet here.

Edit: Wondering how long it will be before one of the ~30/20 players tells this is an easy limp..

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]


I´d probably 3bet the flop for value/free card/deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me, too.

Plus, the turn raise is pretty easy.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Preflop is fine but not if postflop is butchered. Whatever you do on the flop is fine as long as you don't fold, the case can be made for calling or threebetting depending on the likely reactions of your opponents. That's a limper's flop, though, and your overcard is probably worth 1/2 an out or less, so there's not much value in pushing people out, but there is value in potentially getting to the river for free.

Your numbers on how often you hit this draw are off by quite a bit. Under no circumstances are you folding this hand before the river on that board, aside from some utterly disgusting turn situation where you have to call three cold or something.

The turn is an absolute disaster. You do not want overcalls. Look at the action on the flop. These people have hands. They have hands that have outs to beat you or chop you. Three queens give an ace a higher straight, and hands containing an ace are exactly those that you have a chance of pushing out with a turn raise. The pot is sufficiently large that letting someone draw to a threeouter is a mistake (though it's close and they depend on implied odds for this). Any 9 or an ace on the river could chop the pot for someone else, and somebody with a queen is going to call two cold on the turn. Plus there are any number of two pair/ pair + straight draw possibilities out there that might call. Plus, two pair hands are now correct to call a single bet. You do not want overcalls here, period, and even if you did, it would still be better to raise, because often they will have hands that can or will call two cold. Again, you do not want overcalls.

You should be thinking about going for overcalls when you have 65 and the board is 874 and there a bunch of likely big cards after you. When you have three big cards and a fourth on the fringe of the playing zone, going for calls when you get action no matter how many bets go in is a big no-no.

-Michael

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Thanks everyone for your comments, especially you Michael for your detailed response.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

great post as usual michael, but come now sir we know your 8 tabling ass is folding preflop without giving this a second thought.

Also not mentioned yet in this thread yet is the turn card putting up a flush draw. yet another reason to jam the turn.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

"great post as usual michael, but come now sir we know your 8 tabling ass is folding preflop without giving this a second thought."

Not true. I play this hand after any number of limpers on the button, and with just one limper I'd raise it. I actually did an exhaustive investigation of my stats with Q9o before I posted this, just to make sure. Of course, this particular situation doesn't happen much.

Honestly, I don't play any tighter while multitabling than I do when I'm playing one. Gonna have to tighten up because of the rake increase, but that's a different issue.

-Michael

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
"great post as usual michael, but come now sir we know your 8 tabling ass is folding preflop without giving this a second thought."

Not true. I play this hand after any number of limpers on the button, and with just one limper I'd raise it. I actually did an exhaustive investigation of my stats with Q9o before I posted this, just to make sure. Of course, this particular situation doesn't happen much.

Honestly, I don't play any tighter while multitabling than I do when I'm playing one. Gonna have to tighten up because of the rake increase, but that's a different issue.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Was it a winner?

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

"Was it a winner?"

I only see the flop about one in six times outside of the blinds, but yeah, the hand is doing fine.

EDIT: In my most recent database (100k), I now see the flop 40% of the time with Q9o, and my results have improved a lot.

-Michael

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

I don't usually play Q9o versus two limpers, especially one who is a decent player.

I'm scared of a TAG who open-limps 5-handed and bets this flop. Given the action you can expect some bad outs and no free cards. No way should you get involved in 3-betting the flop. But you must play so calling is mandatory.

Most of them probably have correct pot/implied odds to call one bet on the turn. That makes going for overcalls crazy. Probably you cannot protect this hand, but you can insist on being paid full price.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Mate are u the same person who had or has been having a 286bb ds? 6max is fold/raise pf, unless its a pretty extreme situation.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

"6max is fold/raise pf, unless its a pretty extreme situation."

This only applies first in, and if there are a bunch of total calling stations behind you it's as if someone has limped in. Acting immediately after one limper there are hands (small pocket pairs, J9s and such) that you want to limp. After two limpers this list expands even further. Raising two limpers, one who is described as solid, with Q9o is pretty bad. This is a relatively crappy hand that must cope with reverse implied odds.

-Michael

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Raise turn, raise river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

Krishan

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

The deciding factor on whether to play this hand in this situation is your postflop play. If you are not very good post flop you should probably fold. By your posts, I would say you need some postflop work. Getting involved in a hand that can be tough to play postflop for you is a bad idea. I would probably fold Q9o in this situation &amp; call or raise with Q9s.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

Interesting Q9o preflop play. I usually leave this hand only for the blinds and button, sometimes cutoff depending on the players in the game. I'll start experimenting outside the blinds with 1-2 limpers because I want to be like Mike [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Warik, is this the same Warik from JoV?

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
"6max is fold/raise pf, unless its a pretty extreme situation."

This only applies first in, and if there are a bunch of total calling stations behind you it's as if someone has limped in. Acting immediately after one limper there are hands (small pocket pairs, J9s and such) that you want to limp. After two limpers this list expands even further. Raising two limpers, one who is described as solid, with Q9o is pretty bad. This is a relatively crappy hand that must cope with reverse implied odds.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp here like 90% of the time.

Teh other 10%, I either dont feel I am playing well or dont feel like playing Q9o.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Warik, is this the same Warik from JoV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah - indeed! I haven't been recognized online in a while. That was what.... jeez... like 7 years ago?

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Warik, is this the same Warik from JoV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah - indeed! I haven't been recognized online in a while. That was what.... jeez... like 7 years ago?

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems about right--6-7 years ago. I was just but a reader/fan of your original JoV site (turned PK on Chessy because of it), but I remember perhaps from one of your posts there that you were from or residing in FL. Guess that stuck; and just realised you might very well be that guy from reading this thread.

There was a MMORPG thread some time ago and I believe I was the only ex-UO PK that posted (or dared to post?) about turning to poker after roaming the virtual killing fields. Heh, good to see you here. Small world, eh.

Re: $5/$10 Q9o on the button
 

I limp Q9o preflop after bad players whom I frequently have dominated and who will pay me off postflop with crap. When a semi-tight player open limps however, I think Q9o's equity drops because hands a semi-tight player conceivably open limps with often has Q9 dominated (QJ/QTs, K9s).

This kind of reminds me of a post Nate made where he said he was surprised at how low JTo's equity was after a few limpers since players' limping hands often have it dominated. This situation is different but the concept at play is the same, I think.