Rolled vs paired ace door
 

What is your fifth street play? No read on villains as I had just sat down.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (4.10 SB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.55 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___???
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

seems a raise is in order here, why would he play so slow on 3rd with split aces? most likely looking at a diamond draw who thinks you've got a pair of queens ... but of course 4 diamonds are dead now so you're a pretty big favorite to win this one.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

Agreed, I think trips are pretty unlikely at this point. I put a raise in and see where I'm at.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I'd lay a price that he doesn't have trips. He probably has a 4flush and a pair of aces, or passive 2pair. Either way I'm raising this up.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I might just call here. There is time to raise later if I think I have the best hand or make the best hand. I also don't mind carrying along seat 6 at this point. I'm not ready to totally declare my hand yet, which I am doing by raising the paired aces. I want to have the option to have some deception for the final two cards. I'm also not certain yet, I have the best hand. If he has 3 aces, i don;t want to raise him. and if he only has aces, I have him betting my hand. Now, because I can fill up, I am also willing to give seat 6 a shot at a flush or straight rather than chase him out. By just calling here, rather than raising, I'm trying to play both defense and offense at the same time. My goal is to create as much volume if I do have the best hand and to minimize my loss if I have 2nd best hand at this point.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I disagree with pretty much all of this.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I'd raise. It is very likely that you have the best hand. If the bettor had started with Aces, he probably would have raised on third street, right? If the guy behind you has a flush draw, you'd love to see him fold, but good luck with that. If he's going to try to draw out on you, charge him for the privilege.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I am pretty sure I would just call. I put both of your opponents on flush draws, and unless the guy in the middle is a special sort of player, I doubt he will fold his draw to a 5th st raise.
If they both miss their flushes on 6th st, I'd raise after AA bets out. This way, you save a bet if they flush on 6th, and are able to gain back the missed raise on 5th.

Michael

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

You don't save a bet if they flush on 6th, you lose more by not betting with your equity edge on 5th, then now calling with worse odds on 6th. (*See below for more, but you are such a big favorite that the ev you gain by betting here is so huge that passing it up kills you)
You can also get 2bets in on 6th if they flush up and you fill up.

*MOST IMPORTANTLY I don't think you realize how big your equity is even if one play has aces and a 4flush, and the other guy has an oesfd.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

Fifth street is not the time for deception.If seat 6 sees that you are not afraid of possible A's up & figures out that you may have 3 Q's & folds his flush/straight draw,fine.Make them pay to draw at you.You have the best hand now, are the most likely to end up with the best hand,& the pot is big enough to protect.Raise!

RESULT
 

Well I decided to take the consensus advice in advance and raise. Here is how the entire hand played out.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (4.10 SB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.55 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (9.55 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets (all-in)

River - (13.95 BB)

Hero: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___all-in

Total pot: (14.95 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $116.50 | Side Pot 1: $30 | Rake: $3

Hero: [ Qs Qd Qh 2c 3d Td Kh ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Kh,Qs,Qd,Qh,Td ]

Seat 8: [ Jc Kd Ad 4d As 8c Tc ] [ a pair of aces -- Ad,As,Kd,Jc,Tc ]

Re: RESULT
 

Nice hand. Go figure. The reason I wanted to play the trips a little slower and just call 5th was in case he had a hand like he had and might fold if bet and raised into. Many others with his hand would have folded, including myself. The fact that he paid you off till he was all in is mind boggling to me.

Nice get.

Re: RESULT
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he paid you off till he was all in is mind boggling to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think his four flush explains it.

Re: RESULT
 

I guess. For some 3 of a suit on 5th is a flush draw. But in general, If you have a high pair on board, and more so if its the door card, and someone else raises into it on 5th or higher, you are usually in big, big trouble. Some people won't fold there becasue they feel that someone is trying to put a move on them by raising their on board pair. If a player plays like that,as your opponent did, he will usually wind up all in sooner or later. It was a nice win for you.

Re: Rolled vs paired ace door
 

I know I'm late posting a reply to this hand, but I'd like to anyways.

I think you need to raise 5th street, but only because of the way seat 6's board has developed. This is the kind of board that may be willing to call 2 big bets in this situation. If you were heads up, or his board was a little more uncoordinated, I usually like to wait until 6th street to raise.

The problem raising 5th street when you are heads up is that you are basically telling your opponent you have trips. If your opponent is a fairly good player he may even be able to get away from aces up on 5th. But when you wait until 6th street to raise, most players will call the raise and see if they fill. Then they usually pay off the river since they use the logic that there is so much in the pot.

If your opponent sucks then you can just go ahead and raise 5th street heads up anyways, since you know hes gonna call you down.

I thought about perhaps just calling 5th street, and then raising 6th street if it comes clean, but there is a big problem doing this. When the guy with aces on board sees 2 people calling him, hes gonna check 6th street a lot, and you'll lose that extra bet.

Re: RESULT
 

This wasn't three to a flush on fifth. It was four to a flush on fourth. If you bet open Aces with a four-flush and someone raises, do you fold?

Re: RESULT
 

according to the results posted seat 8 had:
Seat 8: [ Jc Kd Ad 4d As 8c Tc ]

I only see 3 diamonds for him. So it becomes then Aces with 3 to flush on 5th, with another player raising that. Folding seems best in that case.

Re: RESULT
 

Sorry stud - I wanted to make sense of his play so bad that I halucenated a four flush for him