Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

I'm usually a tight player and I'm looking for ways to loosen up a little bit pf. A lot of you guys are successful w/a 30/20 style but I can't figure out which hands to add pf and where. Can some of you more successfull LAGTAGs (Soilder, Baronzeus, etc) post a starting hand chart?

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

me454555,

Just FYI, a lot of people who might be 26/19ish otherwise are 30/20 specifically b/c of how loose they play out of the blinds.

___1___

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

What is your ASB?

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Overall ~30% but I'm trying on raising it to 35%, I just gotta find the right hands. Right now I follow the standards of MBendahoe's chart. I dont have the link to it but I think its in the FAQ. That chart pretty much gets you to 20/15, not sure where to go from there though.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

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I would just defend more out of the blinds. I have a feeling that this is where you are losing your hands. I used to have your stats and know I am a 24/19. I would read peterrus posts about blind defence. That really expanded my range in defending the blinds. I also raise with any pair, J9o+, Q8o+, A-rag, and K7o+ on the cutoff and button, and loosely follow the starting hand chart that was posted on the forum. I also think that I play to loosely sometimes. I think if you defend more out of the blinds you will be fine.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

A huge portion of your VPIP comes from CO, Button, SB, and BB. And, the majority of that is blind stealing and defense.

As for other situations... I will give a few hands I think you can play, which you may or not be playing.

Open raise JTs from MP.
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP).
Raise K8o after the CO limps.
Limp 64s after 3 limpers (or maybe after 2 if you have the button).
Limp T7s after 3 limpers.
Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO).
Cold call 22 on the button after a raise and 2 cold calls, or after a limp-limp-raise.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Open raise JTs from MP - I've started to do this
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). - usually a limp for me so I don't think it would raise my vpip. A raise is interesting though
Raise K8o after the CO limps - I don't do this one and I might have to start experimenting w/it
Limp 64s after 3 limpers (or maybe after 2 if you have the button). - 2 limpers on the button, this is a fold for me. In the sb after 3 limpers, I'll complete
Limp T7s after 3 limpers - I gotta start doing that more
Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). - Already do this one

As for my blind defense

@ 3/6 i'll fold my sb to a blind steal 87% of the time and BB 63% of the time. I'm getting slaughtered in the BB losing .18bb/hand but my sb isn't too bad as I'm only losing .06. I think my sb strategy is fine for 3/6 b/c of the 1/3 blind structure but I could be wrong.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

im struggling with the same thing as you, but i think your fold bb to steal should brobably be closer to 55 - you can play a lot of garbage out of the bb

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I think my sb strategy is fine for 3/6 b/c of the 1/3 blind structure but I could be wrong.

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I'm more of a 23/17 guy, but at 3/6 I dipped down a couple points because I was super tight in the sb. As others have said, the best way to up VPIP is with steal/defense. Since I like having initiative I started with upping steals and raises against bad limpers. If there's a particularly horrible CO that open-limps, I'll pound him with a lot of hands.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Just a question for you guys. Are you following a chart? I have never done this. I know what type of hands are good(through pstove analysis) from which position but I dont follow it that rigorously. For example I might raise K9s utg one hand I might fold it the next. I might raise 77 utg one hand, I might limp it the next(yes I limp small pps at some tables). Is this strange to you all?

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Of those hands you mention, thne only ones I might disagree about are:

-Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). I can see doing this, but can also see folding.
-Raise K8o after the CO limps: I would fold here.
-Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). If MP was very aggressive, I'd reraise too, but against unknown I fold.

Curious what others think of those.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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Open raise JTs from MP -

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I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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Open raise JTs from MP -

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I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

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I do also, and last time I checked, I was something like 22/17. I really believe that the difference between us is mostly blind defense, much more so than steals or playing from other positions.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of those hands you mention, thne only ones I might disagree about are:

-Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). I can see doing this, but can also see folding.
-Raise K8o after the CO limps: I would fold here.
-Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). If MP was very aggressive, I'd reraise too, but against unknown I fold.

Curious what others think of those.

[/ QUOTE ]
I usually fold A2s. I'll raise K8o depending mostly on the CO and partly on the blinds. I 3bet ATo against most MP open-raises.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Open raise JTs from MP. good
Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). bad
Raise K8o after the CO limps. bad
Limp 64s after 3 limpers only on the button
Limp T7s after 3 limpers.
on the button and after 2 is ok. serioulsy, how often do you see 3 limpers at 5/10 and 10/20. these hands add like .1% to vpip.

Reraise ATo after an open raise from a somewhat agressive MP (and from almost any CO). make sure opp is aggro, like 16 pfr and 30 atsb

Cold call 22 on the button after a raise and 2 cold calls, or after a limp-limp-raise. ok

the situations you describe rarely come up and wont add anything substantial to vpip. the a2s and k8o i never do and i a 26/20.

to the op: the best way to get to 30/20 is by opening your raising hands on the button and your defending hands in the bb. i would suggest starting on the button. steal with 87s, j8o, k7o, k2s, q6s, q8o, a2o. clearly, it should depend on the bb and sb how low you want to go with these. if you are against tough aggro defenders you may want to hold back some until you are more comfortable. still, this should get you to about 20pfr and 35 atsb. i would concentrate on button play until you are happy and comfortable with your blind stealing play.

after you are happy with your button play then start to defend in the bb with a lot more hands. i am starting to defend about any 2 cards with some sort of highcard value or connectivity.

i dont recommend doing both to start with bc you will be inundated with so many new situations that it would be very easy to get discouraged. also, by starting with button play you will see what kind of blind play is the most annoying and you can emulate those guys.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

How far out of your way do you go to isolate a loose opponent? I think table selection (in addition to blind stealing and defense) has a lot to do with getting your VPIP/PFR up.

What I mean is, my stats went up when I began being very careful to make sure I am sitting directly to the left of a loose player. Depending on your seat and who is left to act you can really raise with a lot of hands that aren't on the "chart" and still be profitable.

I think Rory made a post a while back saying not to worry so much about your overall stats but pay attention to your hand strength vs. your opponents starting range. If you are sitting to the left of someone who plays 70% of his hands you can raise with just about any two cards higher than 8 if you think there's a decent chance everyone else will fold enough.

If the person on your right raises 30% of their hands you can 3-bet with just about any hand that you would normally see a flop with. Your going to get HU with them quite a bit with a better hand and position.

If you choose the right seats at the right tables and really try to isolate your VPIP and PFR will go up.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Victor,

What is the lowest K you raise after a CO limper? I ask because I will raise K8o sometimes if blinds are tight. KTo is obviously obvious. what about K9o?

Great point about working on button first and then BB. I like.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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Raise A2s after a limper from CO (and maybe even MP). bad
Raise K8o after the CO limps. bad


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The A2s is not bad. I dont follow hand charts but if I remember correctly, even the chart that flows around here says to do this.

K8o is an intresting situation as I dont want to fold. Depends I think I mix this up depending on the blinds.

Also to OP: I dont think some of the guys u mentioned are 30/20 in 6max, there was a thread about this and if I remember most ppl that are 30/20 play a lot of 5 handed or less. So the stats are looser than they would be if u filtered it. I know Im in that situation, when I filter Im like 28/20 in 6-handed exclusivly or something like that.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

- stop limping almost completely
- play lots of hands on the button
- steal a lot
- make some loose calls in the blinds

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

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I'm only 22/17, and UTG I raise any two suited cards ten or higher.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I'm @ 20/15 so I think i'd like to get up to 23/17 or so. I think figuring out where to add an extra 3% of hands can help the winrate a lil.

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I think if you go with MEBenHoe's starting hand chart, you'll get upto 24/17 or thereabouts.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

I'm "26/19" but when you filter for 5-6 handed I'm 23/17

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I open-raise JTs and QJs from UTG and I am 26/19

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I'm only 22/17, and UTG I raise any two suited cards ten or higher.

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Wow, I didn't know people raised JTs UTG. I raise QJs, but I guess I might start to add in the JTs. Do you guys do this as a standard, or do you need to be at a pretty tight table?

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Standard. I actually posted a thread a while back about some TAG raising 9Ts UTG and thinking this was crazy but some solid players on 2+2 agreed with even this raise as well...

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a tight player and I'm looking for ways to loosen up a little bit pf. A lot of you guys are successful w/a 30/20 style but I can't figure out which hands to add pf and where. Can some of you more successfull LAGTAGs (Soilder, Baronzeus, etc) post a starting hand chart?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play the starting hand chart pretty much and I'm 24/15. I think the bulk of my difference between that and 30/20 is blind raises. I'm really tentative raising out of the blinds because I hate committing chips preflop out of position against a LAG.

I've just started going to the SSH hand chart for SB/BB raise criteria and seeing I'm not even raising the blinds as much as that says...and that's for 10 player.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

JTs is raise or fold material obviously. But if u are at a table where u will consistently be re-raised by later positions, then always playing JTs UTG is lame. This is especially true with T9s.

Im pretty aggressive preflop but as with everything in poker it depends on playing conditions. On a sidenote I talked with King Yao for a bit about shorthanded poker and he mentioned both JTs and QJs are pretty marginal openers UTG 6max. QJs is the one hand of the two that are standard-ish imo. JTs not always.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

i raise k10 regardless and k9 if co is a fish and the blinds are tight.

ive raised k8o a number of times and it usually turns out a disaster.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Yeah i think the x/20 part comes from reraising liberally on resteals in the blinds.

What is the accepted FSBtSt @ 3/6 and 5/10?

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Posting a chart would be a waste. If you're going to play 30% of your hands, you need to be experienced and savvy enough to play situations.

FWIW, my VPIP and PFR are 30 and 20 sorted for 4-6 handed tables:

By Position

[/ QUOTE ]
Button: 27.8/27.1
CO: 25.2/24.8
MP: 20.0/19.4
UTG: 17.4/17.4
BB: 40.3/11.4
SB: 37.9/19.3

I think it would be a bad idea for you to play the way I do pre flop. Stick with playing 20% of your hands pre flop and you'll be fine. When you're ready to play more hands, you won't need a chart.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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I play the starting hand chart pretty much and I'm 24/15

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I play the same chart and I'm 20/15, weird. I'm not trying to get to 30/20, just add a few more hands or so that can be profitable. I don't raise JTs utg but I do it from MP

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

filtered 5-6 handed i am 27/19 preflop. throw in 4 handed and i am 30/22. i can make a chart but im pretty sure some of the hands i play are so marginal that i make very little money off of them.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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i can make a chart

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Please do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

filtered 5-6 players I am 28.28/20.28. You really don't need a chart. As you become more familiar you will recognize the opponents you should be raising more hands against. Down to 4-6 I am 29.30/21.28.
2-6 I am...
BB 37.16/14.77
SB 39.98/21.59
Button 29.71/28.84
1 26.41/25.51
2 18.00/17.74
3 18.10/18.10

This is just this months stats, not over 20k hands at 10/20, but this is quite similar to my overall stats.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Jeff,

Your button stats interest me. Lord knows I like playing the button. Lately I have been overlimping on the button with speculative hands (J9o sometimes - eek!) when one or two bad players are in, just because I like playing these guys in position.

It looks to me as if, in the same situation, you almost always raise if you're going to play.

How does this affect the rest of the hand? Do you take freebies on the flop much? Or tend to bet the flop?

Guy.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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How does this affect the rest of the hand? Do you take freebies on the flop much? Or tend to bet the flop?

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FWIW, Justin A sweated me for a session and commented on how often I check behind on the flop after raising pre flop.

You're right, I don't limp much pre flop, but I play in tough games where there are almost never multiple limpers. I also never limp behind 1 limper w/ speculative hands like 44 and T9s. If I play them, I raise.

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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BB: 40.3/11.4


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Wow, that one seems suprising to me. I am 22/12 there. Does that mean I don't defend nearly enough, or that you are just that much better and defend twice as much?

Also, my PT stats by position show 4 and 5 off the button, which I am confused by, since I only play 6-max. It follows the decreasing hand count/VPIP/PRF just as all my other off the button stats do...

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

ive loosened up a ton lately. here is my stats my last 25k filtered for 4-6.

button 29/17
co 24/24
mp 18/18
utg 16/16
bb 27/8
sb 30/20

edit: totals are 26/20

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

Not surprisingly, I agree with everything victor said in this post.

Seriously, raising A2s after a limper in MP? Ewww...

Re: Can someone who is 30/20 post a starting hand chart?
 

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- stop limping almost completely
- play lots of hands on the button
- steal a lot
- make some loose calls in the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the "formula" if you will. There is no way to make a starting hand chart for a good 30/20 player, because there are some hands that he will play in some of the time in a given position depending on game conditions but not in other times when those specific conditions aren't present any more.

Example: It is folded to me on the button and I see J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I will fold this hand if the blinds' defending standards are loose or average, but if the blinds are tight and/or very weak postflop, then I'll open with this hand.

So it would be very foolish to add J5s as a hand to open-raise with on the button (because it's a losing play against a lot of opponents), but I probably open it 10-20% of the time in this situation because of game conditions.

Hope that is a helpful example.

PS - In truth, I am really just a weak 26/17 player. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But part of the reason for that is that I seek out LAGgier overaggressive games, and it is generally correct to have tighter open-raising standards in such games. So I make plays like the one in the example less often (because the appropriate condition to make them happens less often). But I call with J5s more often in the BB against a LAGgy raiser than a tight raiser, all else being equal.