Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

I was in a 20-40 game at HG, and after a floorman's decision went against me, I racked up and stormed off in a huff. Here's what happened:

Preflop, UTG raised, guy to my right called, and I took four yellow chips (one bet) off my stack and extended my hand forward. Before dropping the chips in the pot, I picked up my cards with my other hand, said fold, threw them into the muck, and returned the four yellows to my stack. Before the woman to my left did anything, the guy to my right said "that's a bet." I objected and the dealer called the floor over for a decision.

Not only did the floor man say that it was in fact a bet, but he told me I had to put in the full bet of $40 (eight chips). I tried explaining to him why it wasn't a bet, but he kept insisting that "any forward motion means a bet."

I threw $20 in the pot, said that's all I was putting in, and left the game. I was pretty sure I was right at the time, but not absolutely positive. I've since reviewed Robert's Rules of Poker, and believe that the floorman screwed me out of $20.

Comments on his decision? If he was wrong, what should I say to him when I see him tomorrow?

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

You should say, "I am sorry."

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was in a 20-40 game at HG, and after a floorman's decision went against me, I racked up and stormed off in a huff. Here's what happened:

Preflop, UTG raised, guy to my right called, and I took four yellow chips (one bet) off my stack and extended my hand forward. Before dropping the chips in the pot, I picked up my cards with my other hand, said fold, threw them into the muck, and returned the four yellows to my stack. Before the woman to my left did anything, the guy to my right said "that's a bet." I objected and the dealer called the floor over for a decision.

Not only did the floor man say that it was in fact a bet, but he told me I had to put in the full bet of $40 (eight chips). I tried explaining to him why it wasn't a bet, but he kept insisting that "any forward motion means a bet."

I threw $20 in the pot, said that's all I was putting in, and left the game. I was pretty sure I was right at the time, but not absolutely positive. I've since reviewed Robert's Rules of Poker, and believe that the floorman screwed me out of $20.

Comments on his decision? If he was wrong, what should I say to him when I see him tomorrow?

Sparks

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Most rooms have rulebooks that clearly specify what is considered a binding action anyway. Perhaps you could, like, read the one from Hawaiian Gardens.

Why the fuck where you picking up chips and moving them forward and then folding anyway? I hate when people do this.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

This is entirely room dependant. At Mandalay, any forward action with chips in your hand that crosses the magic line on the table is a bet. At Canterbury, you are free to tap the table with chips in hand, and it's a check.

Read the rules, and if necessary, apologize to the floor.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

In many cardrooms, a forward motion with chips in hand is considered a bet. This isn't necessarily what you'll find in robert's rules, but it is nonetheless a very common rule. If the cardroom uses this rule, and the floor uniformly enforces this rule at HG, then you did not get screwed, you simply made a rather unfortunate mistake. HG is not my usual stomping ground so I don't know what their rules are, but in most california clubs this will probably be the rule. In las vegas you'll find more diversity, but if there's a betting line, any forward motion with chips past that line will be a bet. In general, I believe a forward motion with chips past either the betting line (or your cards when there is no betting line) should be considered a bet.

There's a lot of grey area here, and I didn't actually see precisely what happened in your case, but from what I read I cannot be too upset with this particular floor's decision. I suggest you make your actions more clear in the future.

al

edit: after reading the other posts, apologizing might be a good idea if you want to be in good with the floor at HG. It's not a good thing to have a floorperson dislike you if you play at the same place all the time.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Why the BLEEP where you picking up chips and moving them forward and then folding anyway? I hate when people do this.


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Thank you! People often make these vague and unclear motions and try to find yet another shade of grey for yet another rule, thus driving many people, particularly ME, crazy! Actions at a poker table should be CLEAR not fuzzy.

al

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

Am I the only one who thinks the floor let him off the hook for the other $20 he owed?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Actions at a poker table should be CLEAR not fuzzy.

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Hear hear. Holding your chips in front of your cards then folding is a lousy habit to get into, because as already noted many rooms will use that as the line. Why would you do that except as an angle shoot?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

Don't know about Hawaiian Gardens, but at Commerce, if you are unaware of a raise, you may withdraw your "call." That is, if the bet is 8 chips, and you put in 4, and are now told that it's 8 chips to you, the pot has been raised, you may withdraw your 4 if you were unaware the pot had been raised in front of you. As poster only had 4 chips in hand, at Commerce he could claim he didn't know the pot was raised and not be liable to put in the 4 chips.

[Of course, posters says he was aware of the UTG raise.]

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Am I the only one who thinks the floor let him off the hook for the other $20 he owed?


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It depends on if they allow him to play in the future.

When you come forward with chips you are indictating you would like to put money in the pot. If this was an honest mistake you should learn what is or isn't acceptable in a casino; if you were shooting an angle I hope they never let you back in the place.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

The key here, which I think you guys are missing is action behind me. There was none. Therefore, according to RRP (which HG uses) under General Rules, Betting and Raising, Rule #12, I had the right to muck my hand becasue I never released chips into the pot. They were in my hand. The whole motion(s) happened in maybe 2 seconds. It was obvious that I was thinking, not looking around to see what was about to happen behind me, as in taking a shot. I've never taken a shot in 15 years, and I didn't start last night.

Several at the table, including a couple of props were on my side, and the dealer was on my side, because they know me. I play at HG every day. The floorman on the other hand, was a graveyard guy who I've never spoken to much, and I think he was in the top section relieving the main floor who was on lunch break.

I'll find out for sure this afternoon though. Thanks for the responses.

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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but if there's a betting line, any forward motion with chips past that line will be a bet.

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In California (and I believe all other locations) the oval line on the table isn't a "betting line." It's a line which players should push their chips, and their folded cards past, so the dealers can easily reach them. I believe it was put in for liability reasons because several years ago some dealers filed a lawsuit saying the repetitive motion of gathering chips and cards with arms too far stretched out, caused them injury.

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but if there's a betting line, any forward motion with chips past that line will be a bet.

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In California (and I believe all other locations) the oval line on the table isn't a "betting line." It's a line which players should push their chips, and their folded cards past, so the dealers can easily reach them. I believe it was put in for liability reasons because several years ago some dealers filed a lawsuit saying the repetitive motion of gathering chips and cards with arms too far stretched out, caused them injury.

Sparks

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You are overlooking what many have already stated. Whether there was action behind you or not is irrelevent in what you are asking. Some poker rooms actually use a rule that forbids you from making any kind of a forward motion with chips in your hand. If you do, you will be forced to put those chips into the pot.
This is one rule that has MANY variations. I would love to see this rule made consistent. In fact, I am going to write a column about it right now!

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

[ QUOTE ]
In California (and I believe all other locations) the oval line on the table isn't a "betting line." It's a line which players should push their chips, and their folded cards past, so the dealers can easily reach them. I believe it was put in for liability reasons because several years ago some dealers filed a lawsuit saying the repetitive motion of gathering chips and cards with arms too far stretched out, caused them injury.


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Don't split hares here, whatever the original purpose of the rule was, it's what it is commonly used for these days that should be considered. I have never heard your interpretation ever, and I have played in many rooms with a betting line (that doesn't mean you are wrong about the origin of the rule, you are just missing the point).

Don't screw with the betting line. Make sure your ettiquette is BEYOND REPROACH. Whether robert's rules agrees with you is irrelevant, it's whether the floorman on duty does. Although you seem to have a legitimate bitch, it doesn't matter, it's people's PERCEPTIONS that are most important when it comes to the betting line. I guarantee you the floor who made the decision against you knows nothing about your "origins" of the rule.

al

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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I've never taken a shot in 15 years, and I didn't start last night.

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So you're telling us that you simply have this bizarre habit of dangling chips over the pot before you fold? Whatever your intentions, that behavior can easily be interpreted as shooting an angle.

SpaceAce

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Don't split hares here, whatever the original purpose of the rule was, it's what it is commonly used for these days that should be considered. I have never heard your interpretation ever, and I have played in many rooms with a betting line (that doesn't mean you are wrong about the origin of the rule, you are just missing the point).

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I love the line as an ergonomics line. As a betting line it is a horrible thing. Most places that use it as an ergonomics line have a stricter rule: if you make a forward motion (doesn't matter if you cross the line) you have bet.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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I've never taken a shot in 15 years, and I didn't start last night.

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So you're telling us that you simply have this bizarre habit of dangling chips over the pot before you fold? Whatever your intentions, that behavior can easily be interpreted as shooting an angle.


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It's not a habit at all. Where'd you get that? I think it was the first time I've ever done it. But it was so innocuous, not a person there thought I was taking a shot. And of course, I wasn't. Would I post about it if I was?

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

I thought sure I'd get some support on this, which is why I posted in the first place. I'm truly surprised so many here are not only unfamiliar with the rules, but are further unable to recognize the mistake the floorman made after I CITE the specific rule. Very strange indeed.

I was back at HG this afternoon, and spoke with two house players, three floormen, and two shift managers. Every single one of them agreed the floorman made a mistake in his interpretation of the rule. It's simple actually: there was no action behind me, I never released my chips, it was not an angle shot based on my eyes and speed of my movements, and therefore, replacing the chips on my stack and folding was acceptable.

Thanks for all the support.

Sparks

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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I thought sure I'd get some support on this, which is why I posted in the first place. I'm truly surprised so many here are not only unfamiliar with the rules, but are further unable to recognize the mistake the floorman made after I CITE the specific rule. Very strange indeed.

Sparks

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I must have missed it. Where did you post the rule from the HG rulebook?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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I thought sure I'd get some support on this, which is why I posted in the first place. I'm truly surprised so many here are not only unfamiliar with the rules, but are further unable to recognize the mistake the floorman made after I CITE the specific rule.

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I don't think you're lacking on support. I think you're lacking on a full understanding of the context of not only the rule (as stated in Robert's rules, a text which I fully subscribe to as being the "best"), but the context of which the "rule" is commonly accepted as and interpreted as by the majority of persons in the poker world today (esp. floorpersons). As I already said, the "rule" may be one thing, and the "reason for the rule" may be yet another, but the common interpretation of the rule in today's poker world is yet another thing altogether. Each must be distinguished and dealt with separately. The truly saavy player (or floorman) must understand all aspects of what's at stake here, and what exactly happened, and how exactly to interpret it.

Overall, it's been a good thread for thinking about this type of situation tho, thanks for all who responded and all your thoughts.

al

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

From what you said, your action was a bet. I would apologize to the floorman tomorrow and move on.
seriously.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

IS HAWAIIAN GARDENS STILL A CIRCUS TENT?

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

You would get more support if you had a legitimate reason for your actions. We all know that you are a nice guy but anytime I see someone I don't know, pull a stunt like that, I get out my label gun and type out "TOOL".

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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You should say, "I am sorry." -- Steamboatin

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Perhaps you could, like, read the one from Hawaiian Gardens. –- bdk3clash

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Read the rules, and if necessary, apologize to the floor. –-BigBaitsim (milo)

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I believe a forward motion with chips past either the betting line (or your cards when there is no betting line) should be considered a bet. -– Al Capone Junior

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Am I the only one who thinks the floor let him off the hook for the other $20 he owed? --bdk3clash

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Holding your chips in front of your cards then folding is a lousy habit to get into. Why would you do that except as an angle shoot? -- AKQJ10

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It depends on if they allow him to play in the future. -- Randy Refeld

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If this was an honest mistake you should learn what is or isn't acceptable in a casino; if you were shooting an angle I hope they never let you back in the place. –- Randy Refeld

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Whether there was action behind you or not is irrelevent in what you are asking. –- Michael O’Malley

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I have never heard your interpretation ever, and I have played in many rooms with a betting line (that doesn't mean you are wrong about the origin of the rule, you are just missing the point). –-Al Capone Junior

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So you're telling us that you simply have this bizarre habit of dangling chips over the pot before you fold? -- SpaceAce

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I must have missed it. Where did you post the rule from the HG rulebook? –-Michael O’ Malley

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From what you said, your action was a bet. I would apologize to the floorman tomorrow and move on. -- KidPokerX

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Is Hawaiian Gardens still a circus tent? -– lastsamurai

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anytime I see someone I don't know, pull a stunt like that, I get out my label gun and type out "TOOL". -- steamboatin

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Thanks all, for your support of a fellow 2+2'er.

Sparks



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I don't think you're lacking on support. -– Al Capone Junior

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Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

We are giving you tons of support, its that tough love like you read about in the newspaper.

Start watching the players that fake a bet or raise and let me know if that is the peer group you would choose.

Re: Hawaiian Gardens - Floorman Screwup
 

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Thanks all, for your support of a fellow 2+2'er.

Sparks

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Is that what 2+2 is here for? So that strangers on the internet can you make you feel good about yourself when the big bad floorman disagrees with you? I always thought we were here to discuss poker strategy, not give you unconditional moral support when we feel you were wrong or at least in a gray area.