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 Benman 12-13-2005 01:51 AM

Pre-flop Theory Question

Limit hold'em, not in a blind, and you have a hand worth playing pre-flop. If the "proper" play is to call, how much worse is raising? What's the worst case violation, expectation wise?

 TTChamp 12-13-2005 03:55 AM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

I'm not sure I totally understand your question.

I have been playing sort handed lately, so in my book if you are first in, you always want to raise (I think the same is true first in from late position in a full game).

I get the geeling that you are talking about the situation where you have a hand like T9s in middle position in a full game. No one else has come in and you want to limp. In those types of situations, the expectation of limping vs. raising is highly dependent on the players to your left.

Is the BB a call down artist who will go to SD with K high? Is the player to your left a smart LAG who will 3 bet you and bet every street. Get what I'm saying?

Another improtant factor is how many players are acting after you. From early postion a rasie with T9s is much worse expectation wise (metagame considerations aside) than a raise first in form the button with T9s. IMO there is no time where it is correct to limp first in from the Button or CO.

Looking back at your post you may be talking about any time you want to limp even if others are in the pot. If 5 players have limped behind you, then raising with A2s would be a big mistake.

 Shandrax 12-13-2005 07:21 AM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]
Limit hold'em, not in a blind, and you have a hand worth playing pre-flop. If the "proper" play is to call, how much worse is raising? What's the worst case violation, expectation wise?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is about the cost of a mistake. In the worst case it will cost you the pot. That's why it is usually the safer play to call on the river than to fold. For more, read ToP pages 252ff.

 12-13-2005 09:21 AM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

I think that what you are after is something like this

Given that you have a hand, that is getting the right price to call but not to raise, what happens then if you raise

Given that you connect on the flop, you have the best of it, no doubt about it

Usually a hand that can call, but not raise is a drawing hand or a hand in danger of being dominated (An example of the first is 78s and the second is ATo)

I will only look at the drawing hand

Scenario 1
By just calling you are encouraging the players to your right to come in as well .. you have sweetened the pot and they are getting a better price on there calls
If a player to the left should raise, no harm done since everybody will just have to call a single bet and that is most likely not driving anybody out
Since you have a drawing hand, if you hit it you will have a very strong hand, that can stand a lot of callers
The price is right

Scenario 2
You raise ... suddenly you are driving the players on your left out of the pot, since there are very few hands that can cold call a raise ... so most likely they fold or reraise
Now if someone has reraised, limpers before you suddenly have to cold call two bets as well and again ... not very likely
So what has happened is, that you have reduced the price you are getting on your drawing hand

The chances on you connecting with the flop are the same

While I doubt that it is a very big mistake EV wise if we are talking about a single hand ... if done repeatedly it turns into a big leak, that will cost a lot

Which is why you see players once in a while raise with suited connectors for deception, but you see noone doing it on a regular basis

Small EV loss in a single hand ... Big leak over 10000+ hands

 ohnonotthat 12-13-2005 10:35 PM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

First in from EP with a small pair or small suited-connector in a [very] loose game would be bad spots for raising despite the fact that the pair is definitely playable and the S-C is almost certainly playable.

K-Ts and the like would also be bad raising hands; maybe even worse than small S-Cs since the former is far more likely to be dominated. (7-6 plays badly against K-Q but nowhere near as badly as K-T does).

Big unsuited cards (including A-K) are also bad raising hands if there are already 4+ players in the pot.

I'm not sure which of these is the worst but all are bad.

 ohnonotthat 12-13-2005 10:46 PM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]

If 5 players have limped behind you, then raising with A2s would be a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

In other words, everything you said was right - except for, well, everything you said. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

* Re. "behind" - I'm assuming you meant "before" [you], as in you're on the button, 5 players limp, 2 fold, and it's now up to you.

I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to ever [legally] "limp behind you".

*

You have had your knuckles officially rapped; it doesn't mean we don't love you, it simply means you had it coming. [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

*

 AaronBrown 12-13-2005 11:11 PM

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

There are two worst cases to check.

First is if you have an absolutely marginal calling hand. With n players in the pot, your chance of winning is less than 1/n, but close enough that the amount already in the pot makes your call attractive. In this case, by raising you lose the different between 1/n and your chance of winning. That can't be very big preflop in hold'em, but in later stages it can be crucial.

The other bad situation in when you will drive people out of the pot who will pay you if you hit. This also can't be very big preflop in hold'em since even the worst drawing hand can become powerful on the flop, and even the best made had can be undone by a flop.

You can't lose much by raising when you should call preflop in hold'em, while you can lose a lot by calling when you should raise or fold. You can play good poker and never call, but you can't play good poker and always call.

Re: Pre-flop Theory Question

[ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah way to destroy your implied odds on the exact hands that need those odds to be playable.

 ohnonotthat 12-14-2005 03:24 AM

Now see here -

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think what you meant to say is,

"If 5 players have limped behind you raising A2s is close to a no-brainer".

Small pairs, suited connectors and suited Aces are excellent late position raises when several opponents have already limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah way to destroy your implied odds on the exact hands that need those odds to be playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

*

I see you've posted almost 4,000 times.

Let me know when you get to having READ as many.

I will explain the nature of your ignorance IF and only if you promise to IM me with the table number whenever you sit down.

P.S. I would have been more gentle had you prefaced your opinion with something like, "I may be wrong" OR "I may be an imbecile but" . . .

- Chris

*

Would anyone like to help this lost soul ?

(Suggestion: Use small words).