Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

What's your opinion of our New WSOP World Champion?

Here's my take...

Like many of you that have the 'poker Passion' as I do and have, I listened all night, 13 hours I believe (while playing 6 games online) to the final table of this year's Main event. I thought it was often rivitting, had some fine drama and true excitement ( considering both the bracelet and millions of dollars involved ) and will never forget the experience...can't wait til next year.

I think Hachem played outstanding poker esp. at the last table. Often being near the bottom regarding stack size,( outchipped 9 to 1) what he accomplished IMO was truly impressive. IMO he _earned_ the title.

As Joe has said since, he felt the only true 'lucky moment' was his all in with Q7 against the 99 hand. He explained, justified this move to my satisfaction.

He appears to also be a Class player and Class person as well as being personable.

Joseph has said publicly he will make an effort to expand poker and continue to help make the game many of us love, acceptable to more of the masses. He said he will attempt to raise the level of class in the game.

At this point, I like him, and feel he was one of the top 3-4 players at the final table, appreciate the integrity in the way he handles himself and feel he will represent the world of poker as the WSOP Champion well. Bravo to Joe.

Any comments pro or con or opinions are gratefully welcome, thank you.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

A very likable fellow and fine gentleman. Not as deep a thinker about the game as Raymer, so therefore - not as likely to be heard from again.

Raymer is an exceptional poker mind and will win other big events. Other recent champs like Chris M and Robert V are not quite on Raymer's level. Hachem may fit somewhere in between.

But who could possibly root against such fine gentleman. I hope all goes well for the new World Champ. May I add that I know next to nothing about anything.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

I don't care much for his facial hair thingy he has going. I also would rather have a Japanese or Spanish speaker win if a foreigner is going to win, but having a foreigner win is all good in any case.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Although I liked the format that ESPN used this year, showing the tourney from the first day, overall the final table wasn't very memorable in my opinion. 2004 was memorable and Raymer was exciting to watch. 2003 was exciting since Moneymaker was making unbelieveable moves.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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He appears to also be a Class player and Class person as well as being personable.


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are these two usually mutually exclusive?

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

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You're saying that it looks suspicious when Hachem limped, yet Kanter raises him. Doesn't look very scared to me. Still, Hachem decides to use a predetermined play to try and push him off, but again, he'll only be called by a better hand.

Remember, Hachem is putting his tournament life on the line. It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

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You're saying that it looks suspicious when Hachem limped, yet Kanter raises him. Doesn't look very scared to me. Still, Hachem decides to use a predetermined play to try and push him off, but again, he'll only be called by a better hand.

Remember, Hachem is putting his tournament life on the line. It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

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Obviously he'll only be called by a better hand. The idea was that he thought Kanter was very likely to fold.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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I don't care much for his facial hair thingy he has going.

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LMFAO

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

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You're saying that it looks suspicious when Hachem limped, yet Kanter raises him. Doesn't look very scared to me. Still, Hachem decides to use a predetermined play to try and push him off, but again, he'll only be called by a better hand.

Remember, Hachem is putting his tournament life on the line. It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

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Obviously he'll only be called by a better hand. The idea was that he thought Kanter was very likely to fold.

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And he thought this without any sort of read whatsoever? Just one bad mistake can cost him the tournament.

Do most pros actually do that? Move in when frustrated by an aggressive player, hoping that he is bluffing?

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Yes it's called a resteal. Waiting for aces shorthanded when a player is raising nearly every pot is a poor strategy. Too bad for Hachem, Kanter had a decent hand but it was only something like 2-1. Hachem's only crushed by like 5 hands Kanter can call with and there's no reason to believe he has to have one of those.

NH Hachem. Pass the suga.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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And he thought this without any sort of read whatsoever? Just one bad mistake can cost him the tournament.

Do most pros actually do that? Move in when frustrated by an aggressive player, hoping that he is bluffing?


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You are assuming quite alot. Who said he didnt'ahve a read? Who said he was merely frustrated? Who said that he was hopeing kanter was bluffing?

From the little we were shown, it seemed like kanter was making moves with damn near any two cards, especially any face card. A move like Hachems will obviously get called by only a better hand, but it will also push better hands off.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Hatchem explained his logic behind this move in his chat btw.

To say he didn't have a read is to really understand what a "read" is. It's not just "he twitched his eye, he's got crap". It's "I understand how he plays here and what he will raise here and I think I can fold a very large % of hands with which he'll raise in this spot".

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

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This is not true. Hell only be called by hands that have him beat. But the % of the time he thinks Kanter will fold out weighs the times he calls with a monster and busts him. I play sng's and in tournament play you have to push CRAP to be a longterm winner. You cant say he didnt have reads. They have been playing poker for like a week and Im sure hes seen him play a little bit to know what type of player he is.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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I also would rather have a Japanese or Spanish speaker win if a foreigner is going to win, but having a foreigner win is all good in any case.

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You have a predjudice agains Lebanese-speaking people?

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

I didnt really see him do much out of line from what they showed on TV. I think he will be a good champ.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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He appears to be a class person as well as being personable.

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i agree with this bit.... the rest was a bit overboard.

awesome guy (i go to his old poker room and am mates with one of his regular patients so ive heard from a fair few people) but i wouldnt say he is anywhere near being one of the top poker players in the world. i would say the vast majority of the best players right now havent taken down the wsop main event yet

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

From what i hear around here he sounds like a good upstanding member of the poker community.

If there is one issue i can say its that thing about him stiffing the dealers. Not that i personally care, but surely he must have figured that he became an instant celebrity, with a microscope on him as far as poker is concerned.

EDIT:

To be clear, he didn't "stiff" the dealers. He just didn't tip anything on top of what was already withheld from the prize pool for dealer tips. To suggest that he did stiff them is missing the point of the earlier threads on this issue - Dids

even if he didnt "like' to tip or felt he was not obligated too, i think it would have been in his better interest to leave something, and keep his image pristine and charismatic.

Just that one little thing (basically the very first decision he made after winning 7.5 million and WSOP title) might give some people a negativew first impression.

Not biggie as far as im concerned, but for the sake of the public spotlight, i would have tipped cuz others might feel stronger about it.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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If there is one issue i can say its that thing about him stiffing the dealers.

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And that's going to be something he's remembered for, for a long, long time. No matter what he might have done later, after the spotlights and the mics were turned off. Too bad he didn't use better judgement.

To be clear, he didn't "stiff" the dealers. He just didn't tip anything on top of what was already withheld from the prize pool for dealer tips. To suggest that he did stiff them is missing the point of the earlier threads on this issue - Dids (yes, I'm putting this in every post that repeats this idea)

Then again, no telling what I'd have done. I'd like to think my habit of toking dealers and trying to be nice to all the room's staff would have kicked in, but I can't say since it wasn't me winning that monster stack of Franklins.

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Maybe I should look at the bright side. I don't have to worry about it!

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And that's a good thing?

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Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

To be honest with you, I'm not positive that I'd tip. I mean, sure the man won 7.5 million, but it's his money, and the dealers get paid. And, doesn't a portion of the entry fee go to the dealers anyhow? I may be wrong. At the casino, I never tip. Maybe I'm a jerk, but I just don't see the point. I'm already paying them for the privelage of playing at their establishment. The dealers should stick up for themselves if they're not receiving a fair wage. I'd back them on that. If they went on strike, I'd bring them food and water (but I would save the Mountain Dew for myself).

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

It's not like they showed a bunch of blind-steal hands in the coverage either.

Very few who are trying to judge this hand didn't read through the hand-histories on whatever site has them all.

Thus, for all you know, there may have been a hand or two in there where Kanter showed he would raise with anything but would frequently lay-down to a re-steal attempt.

If Kanter has a history of raising a LOT...and then laying down to aggression...then Joe could have a combination of folding-equity AND a chance of catching on the board that would make it +EV to try such a move.

Stack size is a factor here too.


There are other ways where it would be just fine to try that move...I was just listing one.


trying to look at these hands in a vacuum is a mistake.
These guys played for 13 hours on that day and we saw only a small fraction of those hands (and zero of the hands where someone bets PF and the rest of the table folds...or someone else raises and the original bettor folds).


To say that there were no reads on the other players is silly. They got to learn quite a bit about each others' personalities and playing styles through those many hours sitting there staring at each other.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

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99 is almost just as dominant as AQ against Q7.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog.

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I don't disagree that it was a bad play, but I disagree with this statement totally. People bluff all the time for all of their chips, and sometimes they are great plays.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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A very likable fellow and fine gentleman. Not as deep a thinker about the game as Raymer, so therefore - not as likely to be heard from again.

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Umm, how would you know?

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

I'd rather see Dannenman as champ, seriously what a likeable guy.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Thank your varied posts, much appreciated.

Would hate to think Joseph is stiffing dealers, hate to see him labled that way if it's not true. And yes, to my knowledge they take out a certain % of the prize pools for tokes.

He explains in his interview (I think on this forum) about the Q7 and shutting Kanter down. He said it was going on consistantly( Kanter raising _him_ and he was going to put him to the test 'the next time he did it', or words to that effect). Maybe someone can help me with his quote, sorry I don't have the link ( he also explains the JJ vs 77 hand). I'm quite sure he didn't expect to be called...the play can look good (as a 'play') or as pointed out above, make him look like a fool and cost him the tournament. Kanter this time woke up with a hand, I believe Hachem was @ a 2-1 dog with the tourney on the line. It probably shocked him when he got called. Yes, he got very lucky.

I would not have made the play ( rather wait for an ace or pair or two paint).

Other than that, I felt Joe played a very good final table( 13 hours of it ) considering it was for the World Championship and the serious money involved. He was badly short stacked and made an excellent comeback IMHO. Give him Andrew's chip lead, I don't see how he looses it (the championship). And I have all the respect for Andrew (just call with the TT hand and (maybe) go all in on the flop. Don't call with the KJ) Easy to say sitting here at home. To go from big chip leader to 4th was a shame.

Regarding my comment about his (Hachem's) "Class"...yes, you can be a Class person and not so at the table. The "Shiek 'may' fall into this catagory. I was impressed with Hachem's integrity at the table...when he said to Dannemen 'shhhh' ( final hand ), I got the feeling he felt he induced a call and felt bad about it. I'm sure they were both emotionally exhausted again, considering all that was at stake.

I feel Hachem will be a fine ambassador for poker, time will tell. At the same time, I feel it was great to see Danneman finish in second...a very nice guy coming from basically a 'home game'. Seems like a great guy and should inspire more like him to play.

As far as Fosselman goes, IMHO it was THE accomplishment of the Main Even (or one of the big ones). His finish along with the win last year was nothing but staggering in my view. I would have dumped the kings on the turn when the st8 card fell (what can I beat and this IS for the tournament) but Greg is my new tournament Super hero. WHAT a great accomplishment. Get away from the king king hand Greg outplays people to the final table. Awesome.

I would love to see Greg review Hachem's play at the final table but that probably won't happen. ( not just the hands ESPN have shown).

Thanks again for your input.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

3% of the prize pool was reserved; if you figure he got 14% of the prize pool, he actually "tipped" about $250,000.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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I'd rather see Dannenman as champ, seriously what a likeable guy.

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Me too, would have been another moneymaker. Tons of home players hitting up the net to try and hit it big. Hey if that guy can do it, anyone can [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

I think Hachem played very well from what I heard on the radio coverage and saw on television.
I also saw him on Leno a few weeks after his win and he did a fine job of talking about the game.
I think he's a good ambassador for the game.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Played played decent poker in my mind. Nothing great or spectacular. Got lucky in some situations. Made questionable bets.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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I'm already paying them for the privelage of playing at their establishment. The dealers should stick up for themselves if they're not receiving a fair wage. I'd back them on that.

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If the casinos paid the dealers "a fair wage", they would increase the rake to pay for it. You want to back them on that? And I'd be willing to bet that the total cost to the playing community would be higher than it is now if tipping was replaced with higher wages.

Also, with a higher wage and little or no tipping, bad dealers make as much as good dealers, all paid for by the players.

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At the casino, I never tip. Maybe I'm a jerk, but I just don't see the point.

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The point is that tipping is an economic reality, just like tipping waiters. It is paying for services on the honor system. If you don't tip, you are taking services without paying for them.

I don't like tipping, but I do, for several reasons. One is that I know that the dealers work for tips; that's the system, and I feel that I am implicitly agreeing to the system when I sit at the table. Another is that I would feel like a jerk if I stiffed a good dealer just for the principle of not tipping.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Let me clarify. I tip waiters and waitresses because they only make $2.00 an hour or something sad like that. However, if they're crap, they do get less. In Detroit we pay $10.00 to play. Multiply that by ten, that's $100 they receive from the table per hour. That should be plenty to pay the dealer a decent wage. Also, if it were possible to tip a specific dealer, I would tip those that keep the game running smooth, create a good atmosphere to play in. But I'm not going to give a tip that's shared by the dealers that do a poor job. Why should they be rewarded. Change the system, then, to allow us to tip the dealers we feel deserve it.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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That Q7 move in was terrible. He was only going to get called by a better hand, which is what happened.

I don't understand how he could put his tournament life on the line with a predetermined play like that. He didn't even have a read on the other player.

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Quite the contrary, Aaron Kanter had been raising very frequently when it got short-handed and Hachem limped from the button (very suspicious). Kanter folds a majority of his hands there and Hachem is only crushed if hes called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ.

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You're saying that it looks suspicious when Hachem limped, yet Kanter raises him. Doesn't look very scared to me. Still, Hachem decides to use a predetermined play to try and push him off, but again, he'll only be called by a better hand.

Remember, Hachem is putting his tournament life on the line. It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

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let me guess, everything you're using as evidence is from what you saw on TV

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

Check what I edited into the ops on the tipping issue. To suggest that Hatchem didn't tip would be incorrect.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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You're saying that it looks suspicious when Hachem limped, yet Kanter raises him. Doesn't look very scared to me. Still, Hachem decides to use a predetermined play to try and push him off, but again, he'll only be called by a better hand.

Remember, Hachem is putting his tournament life on the line. It's not smart. I don't see how you can justify putting all your money in when you'll only be called if you're an underdog. Just because he won't be "crushed" doesn't make it any less of a bad play.

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You're missing the times that Hachem wins the pot when he gets Kanter to fold a better hand. If Kanter is raising with Q9, he's got the better hand, but he's not going to call. This isn't the beginning of a tournament where you raise 10K to win a 100 pot with KK. It's the final table, moving up the ladder isn't trivial, and the money in the pot is justified in taking a shot at it, especially against an agressive opponent.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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Check what I edited into the ops on the tipping issue. To suggest that Hatchem didn't tip would be incorrect.

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I would not only suggest it, I would assert it. If Hachem did not give any money to the dealers beyond what was deducted from the prize pool (I don't even know if he did or not.), then he did not tip.

According to Merriam-Webster:

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Main Entry: tip
Function: noun
: a gift or a sum of money tendered for a service performed or anticipated : GRATUITY

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The definition for "gratuity" is:

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Main Entry: gra·tu·ity
Pronunciation: gr&amp;-'tü-&amp;-tE, -'tyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ities
: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : TIP

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The key is the phrase "beyond obligation". Money taken from the prize pool is obligatory, therefore it is not a tip. It is no different than the $1 fee in a $10+1 sit and go. It is a non-optional cost of playing, an entry fee.

Tipping or not is his decision. The usual practice is 3% on top of the prize pool deduction. That may have been a bit high for the biggest prize ever, but something like $100K out of $7.5 million (less than 1.5%) certainly wouldn't kill him.

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The key is the phrase "beyond obligation". Money taken from the prize pool is obligatory, therefore it is not a tip. It is no different than the $1 fee in a $10+1 sit and go. It is a non-optional cost of playing, an entry fee.

Tipping or not is his decision. The usual practice is 3% on top of the prize pool deduction. That may have been a bit high for the biggest prize ever, but something like $100K out of $7.5 million (less than 1.5%) certainly wouldn't kill him.

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In your example, it would be a $10+1 tournament, the "+1" goes to the house (Harrahs), but then they also take away 30 cents from each of the $10 from the prize pool to go to the dealers. The more accurate analogy would be $9.70 + $1 + $0.30. I don't think the full $10K goes to the prize pool anyways, it's more lke $9700 + $300, then 3% from the $9700 goes to the dealers.

If they didn't take the 3% off the top, I'm sure Hachem would have tipped. I'm sure we can search the archives for what Greg tipped when he won.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

So if I go out to eat with a party of 15 and they automatically add 15% to the bill and I don't tip on top of that, I've stiffed them?

You're wrong, and arguing silly semantics.

Re: Joseph Hachem...Your Opinion New World Champion
 

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So if I go out to eat with a party of 15 and they automatically add 15% to the bill and I don't tip on top of that, I've stiffed them?

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Probably. 15% is a marginal tip, particularly for someone serving a big party. And as long as we are into silly semantics, the 15% is usually referred to on the menu as a service charge. And since it is not optional, it is not a tip.