Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

PokerRoom 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.60 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.80 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

I am trying to loosen up in late position more, and K6s seemed a decent enough hand to call with (Sklanky says it is), when BB raised preflop, I am still trying to stay loose so I called.

On the flop I had the OESD and a BDFD + the over card. My re-raise here was as much for info from the BB as anything and when he 3-bet, I decided he must have a big pair or AK.

On the turn, I am feeling pretty good that I can draw at least one of the cards I need. 18 outs here- is that correct? (Including the overcard). If I am right and he has JJ or QQ I felt that there is more than enough money in the pot to "chase" here. Obviously if he has AA or AK then my K outs don't matter but even without the overcard there are 15 outs. So I am trying to make him pay for being too cocky with that big pair I put him on by capping.

Is this good agressive play or stupid chasing with an obviously strong villain's hand?

The final pot was more than 20 BB, I'll post the results after a little bit.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I like the way you played it, you had a big edge and you pushed it correctly. The only thing that I will say is that you can not count the kings as full outs, so you have maybe 16.5 or so outs. But I still play it the same.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I like the way you played..although PF call is a little loose for me but that is just me. After that you have many outs although I wouldnt count your K's as even an out at all personally. I would put him on AA or KK or AK therefore if you hit a K you are dead. I like the way you pushed your edge with that hand.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I would have capped the flop and called his reraise bet. This guy really likes his hand.

And you won't know if yours is any good until the river.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Cap the flop. You have equity to do so for value, plus you may buy a free turn card.

The turn is bad. Your equity is just a tad over 25% here (I think you have to discount your K outs -- with BB's relentless betting, I think there's a good chance he has JJ here, and even if he only has AA/KK a river K still doesn't save you). Your raise and his subsequent 3-bet narrows the field enough that your raise was no longer for value. Just calling also puts you in the perfect position to trap the field for 2 bets when he leads the river if you hit one of your draws.

EDIT: [i]why K outs likely aren't good

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Yeah, why is everyone else agreeing with the turn action?

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Preflop seems fine to me, I'd limp this 100% of the time.

Flop I like, but not for the reasons you mention:
[ QUOTE ]
My re-raise here was as much for info from the BB as anything and when he 3-bet, I decided he must have a big pair or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising for info here is pretty absurd. It's very overused at the best of times, but here you already know that you're behind, and you know that you'll almost certainly be ahead if you hit. So there isn't really any more information you can get or use.
I would still raise, however, for 2 reasons:
1) You have a strong draw and a strong backdoor, so your equity is large enough to raise against 3 people for value.
2) You might buy yourself a free card on the turn.

Turn play is close. Pumping draws on the turn is rare because usually there's not enough people to warrant any value. If there's ever a time to do it, it's now, I suppose; I'd put you at about 2:1 to come in by the river. You'd basically need all 3 callers in for it to be better than breakeven for you. Since you're not losing any money if you only get one caller (plus Villain), I suppose you could try for the raise, hoping that Villain doesn't make it two back to everyone. Unless I was pretty certain that everyone would stay to river, I probably wouldn't try it.
Then with one more caller in, the turn cap is pretty much neutral EV with an increase to your variance. Plus you give up the chance to c/r the river if you hit. If I did raise the turn, I wouldn't cap it.

edit: Missed lack of flop cap. Cap 'er, cap'n.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I don't play this preflop, but you said you have your reaso, so given that...

I like the flop raise occasionally against this many opponents. With 4 other opponents, I guess you need more than 20% equity for value, I don't know if you have it, but it may buy you a free card on the turn if you want it. (Especially if the BB has a hand like AK, AQ, or some other hand that he may slow down with, ignoring the fact that he 3 bet you right after)

18 outs on the turn is incorrect. Someone holding 10 9 has the nut straight, and if you DO hit the 9, someone with a 10 has a higher straight. I may be a little harsh in saying that you have to discount 3 outs for that. I also don't think you can count the K as full outs since BB may have a pair of kings beaten.

I think you'd be safe to say 11 or 12 outs.

Given all this I prefer calling the turn...

Travis

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn play is close. Pumping draws on the turn is rare because usually there's not enough people to warrant any value. If there's ever a time to do it, it's now, I suppose; I'd put you at about 2:1 to come in by the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's 15 outs and assumes that all of our straight outs are good. If a 9 falls, the board is 5789J and we'll lose to a T a non-negligible amount of time. We also split more often than usual since we only have a 1-card straight draw.

I'm figuring 9 clean outs for the flush, and another 3 outs or so for the straight, which gives him 26% equity or 1:3 odds. It could be argued that it's a % or two higher, but I think that's the right ball park.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

The river card came A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Now my question is do I just fold here or do I make a crying call? If call, why?

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Yeah, to be honest I just glanced at the bottom part of my cheat sheet, where the odds of completing the turn vary from like 2.5:1 to 1.6:1. If we're saying 12 outs, he's actually 2.8:1 to improve, n'est pas? Like I said, there's only value in it if all 3 will stay in; but I think your numbers are much better.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, to be honest I just glanced at the bottom part of my cheat sheet, where the odds of completing the turn vary from like 2.5:1 to 1.6:1. If we're saying 12 outs, he's actually 2.8:1 to improve, n'est pas? Like I said, there's only value in it if all 3 will stay in; but I think your numbers are much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, 46/12 - 1 = 2.83. He needs 3 people to stay in for value (since we probably can't convince a fraction of a user to stick around [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), which he is just barely getting if no one folds. Even if no one folds, it's almost breakeven, and we might slow BB down if he just has an overpair to the board. In such cases, I'd prefer to raise the river if we hit our hand, since we'll be collecting 2BB each if we hit -- i.e. we get to push a much larger equity edge later by foregoing a small one here.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I see no reason to call. You missed your draws, and king high will win roughly 0% of the time against two opponents. So I doubt you have odds.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Pre-flop is... ok. With three limpers and position I am willing to gambool.

You need to cap this flop. You have a one card OESD (but isn't very vurlnerable to other one-card holdings, at least) and a BDFD, so you have nine outs with 4 players in for three bets. You have an equity edge here, jam it.

The turn play is ugly. You know you have king high, right? You have a metric ton of outs to a strong hand (9 clubs plus the 3 non-club 4s and 9s, but the 9s give anyone with a T a bigger straight, so meh), but there is only one card to come. With four people left, I guess this is a really thin value bet, but once the BB 3-bets and UTG is out of the hand, you need to slow down.

[ QUOTE ]
The river card came A .
Now my question is do I just fold here or do I make a crying call? If call, why?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold, because you have king high (and busted straight and flush draws). The BB has been acting like he has a hand, and I am inclined to believe him.

-K

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, to be honest I just glanced at the bottom part of my cheat sheet, where the odds of completing the turn vary from like 2.5:1 to 1.6:1. If we're saying 12 outs, he's actually 2.8:1 to improve, n'est pas? Like I said, there's only value in it if all 3 will stay in; but I think your numbers are much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, 46/12 - 1 = 2.83. He needs 3 people to stay in for value (since we probably can't convince a fraction of a user to stick around [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), which he is just barely getting if no one folds. Even if no one folds, it's almost breakeven, and we might slow BB down if he just has an overpair to the board. In such cases, I'd prefer to raise the river if we hit our hand, since we'll be collecting 2BB each if we hit -- i.e. we get to push a much larger equity edge later by foregoing a small one here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if I am understanding this, and much of it is going right over my head I think...

the turn re-reraise is not good value unless all the parties still alive at this point call. Right? Since I am only 2.83 to 1 to hit a nut hand, if there is one folder and only one caller then I am only improving the pot by 2BB? 2.83 &gt; 2
Therefore wait to see if my hand hits before trying to get that last bet in?

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

PF - not for me, but its kosher
flop - nice
turn - I like slowing down, especially after that flop 3bet. I 'm with everyone who says you K outs suck, cause they do

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

nahh man, drop that hand like it has scabes

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the turn re-reraise is not good value unless all the parties still alive at this point call. Right? Since I am only 2.83 to 1 to hit a nut hand, if there is one folder and only one caller then I am only improving the pot by 2BB? 2.83 &gt; 2

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like that. You will win ~26% of the time. Suppose 1 person folds, so there are only 3 of you left. You each contribute 1SB, for a total increase of 3SB to the pot. Your share is 3/4 = 0.75SB.

To gain that 0.75SB, you put in 1SB. Therefore the EV of your action was -0.25SB and you lost money.

Conversely, suppose there were 5 of you that called a bet on the turn. Then 5SB would go in, and you would get 5/4 = 1.25SB share of it, for which you paid 1SB, for a net gain of +0.25SB.

That's the sort of calculation people mean by pot equity.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The river card came A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Now my question is do I just fold here or do I make a crying call? If call, why?

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends. How often do you think BB caps the flop, turn, and leads the river with Q-high? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Something like that. You will win ~26% of the time. Suppose 1 person folds, so there are only 3 of you left. You each contribute 1SB, for a total increase of 3SB to the pot. Your share is 3/4 = 0.75SB.

To gain that 0.75SB, you put in 1SB. Therefore the EV of your action was -0.25SB and you lost money.

Conversely, suppose there were 5 of you that called a bet on the turn. Then 5SB would go in, and you would get 5/4 = 1.25SB share of it, for which you paid 1SB, for a net gain of +0.25SB.

That's the sort of calculation people mean by pot equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is basically what I was trying to say in my primative way. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
Why are you referring to the turn bets as SB? Aren't they BB?
This has been a VERY enlightening conversation. thanks to everyone who has contributed so far!

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Good god the advice in this thread is bad.

You only have a draw. Not only that, but it is a pretty shitty draw. It is significantly weaker then a typical OESD. The flop raise is close but is probably okay since if you make the straight it will put a 4-STRT on board. This will obviously slow everybody down, so making this raise somewhat helps you mask your hand. Should a four hit on the turn, people might not figure you for a straight if you raise the flop.

Note that it isn't really a value raise in this spot. You are getting 4 way action, and your draw is probably worth less then 25% of the pot at this point since a lot of things can go wrong if you do make a straight (chop chop, lose to a bigger straight, etc). You are only making it to get more action should it actually come in. When the PFR makes it 3-bets on the flop, it is time to shutdown and start just calling.

On 4th street again you should just call his bet. If the flush comes in on the river, no one will figure you for it. The PFR will lead out on the river and then you can value raise the field. If the straight comes in, he might or might not bet but you hope that he does (and then you value raise of course). The best time to raise the turn on a draw is when you also have some kind of showdown value. So let's pretend that the turn was a king in this hand. Now it might be worth a raise since you will be calling a bet on the river when you miss. It might be better to raise since you want him to check to you on the river. If you make a straight you can bet, but you can check behind if you miss (and showdown your pair of kings). You can also bet your kings on the river if you want.

So I might just call on the flop (or I might raise). I always call on the turn. What you are doing is just pure spew.

Brad

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

This is a hand from awhile back. I was just sifting through past hands, and, having just read this thread, this seemed interesting. I thought it was correct at the time, but now I'm a bit unsure. Not exactly the same situation but kind of relevant. Tell me what you think.

My note at the time was that UTG+1 was LAGish preflop, passive besides that.


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (18 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB calls $0.40 (All-In), MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 21.40 BB

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

Just to put a cap on this (again thanks for all the wisdom) I did fold after the river came A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and so did MP1. The BB chose to show us his hand and it was...


6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I about shat myself. His PFR was with 46o, which of course my would have made my big straight better if it hit and the flush was good too. It seems bizarre that someone would raise this hand PF without knowing what cards were coming on the flop. I have no idea what the motives were behind this move... but I guess it worked to perfection for this freak.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

I would have bet the flop here. Other than that, this looks good to me.

On a side note, thanks for posting the hand as a response to this thread, rather than creating a new thread. I'd rather see a longer theme thread than many different hands posted that are similer. Just a personal preference.

Re: Stupid chasing or good agressive play?
 

In the dark:

FLOP:

What I like about the raise is that it might buy you 2 more outs (weak ones though) if BB has AK, and it may also buy you a free card on fourth street. I don't think the raise is very much for value though. Your OESD is weak (vulnerable to redraws), and may only split the pot. Your over card can't be worth that much on a coordinated flop against 4 opponents.

I don't like:

"My re-raise here was as much for info from the BB as anything and when he 3-bet, I decided he must have a big pair or AK."

If info was your main purpose for raising, then I think you are paying too much for that info.

TURN:
18 outs? This is too generous. The turn card was not all good news. If someone has T9, you only have 9 outs. If someone stays with a T, you have at most 4 outs for OESD (most likely less since if anyone has a 6 you split).

I doubt that the turn raise has value, since that J weakened the OESD. Also the K outs will rarely be good in this spot.