Deep in Stars 500K.
 

I dont have alot of experience deep into tournys, so not sure about this.

45 left and this is the first hand after being moved to a new table. So I have no image or any reads.

8000/16000 800 ante
Im in BB with 141,116
Viilian is MP with 299,032

villian opens for 48,000 folded to me I have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Whats my move? Is this a no brainer.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

i'd assume this is a push.

was he a) one of the biggest stacks in the tournament b) one of the biggest stacks at your table?

c

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

Push.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

Push. There's good chance you are in a race situation. With 9bb's behind after posting, you need to make a move.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

stop n go. call preflop, push any flop.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

[ QUOTE ]
stop n go. call preflop, push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this a lot too.....but absent reads, I think I'd tend to push sooner rather than later.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

Thats a play I need to use more, but not sure what situations a stop n go works best. say flop comes with 2 or 3 broadway cards, still push. Also I played highschool football with Eli. He's living up to all the hype.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

I dont like this idea. I think you are too deep for it. Too good a chance he had a hand like QT and will not call your all in before the flop. Also a good chance that when you stop and go villain wont fold an ace high hand like AK or AQ even if he bricks the flop. I feel like if you even have an inkling of FE you should push, and here I feel like you have significant FE.

-Jason

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

the idea of a stop n go is you push ANY flop. you have no idea what he has preflop, you just know your about 50/50 against his range. So by calling and pushing the flop you sometimes get better hands to fold (say 1010 on a AQ4 flop) and you sometimes shut overcards out, Like QJ and 823 flop. Of course sometimes you run into 1010 on the 823 flop, or QJ on the J94 flop, but those hands were gonna call you preflop anyway. You use the stop n go, when the other player will call your preflop push no matter what and you have a small/medium pocket pair.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

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you just know your about 50/50 against his range.

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not to nitpick but i think its closer to 60/40

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

probably, although it depends how short you are.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

The idea of Stop-n-go is also that it's used when you don't have any PF folding equity.

If you push Villian will have to call for 40% of his remaining stack getting 2.2:1. Good but not fab odds. Unless he's a depraved LAG I can see him folding at least half of his possible holdings. Out of the number of times he's actually holding a hand that a) beats you PF and b) that he would actually fold on and Ace hi flop (a high number of players in the $500,000 simply won't be capable of folding KK or even QQ on an Ace flop) it's only going to come 1 time out of 3.

Am I the only one considering folding PF and waiting for a chance to get first in? Edit: After all, you have just paid your 'meal-ticket' for another round of hands?

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

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probably, although it depends how short you are.

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i think that i'm probably with jason on this one. one minorish point: i always get lost in these stars hands, the hhs tell you the amount you have behind right, not the total amount to start the hand? that is of some small amount of concern at this point i think.

i think that if you push preflop here, many opponents are not calling even getting right around 2:1, but i think that it is linked to the questions i asked before for many opps. 1) was the raiser a big stack for the tournament 2) was he big for the table.

i think that pushing preflop maintains a lot of folding equity against most players with hands like QT, KJ. Mostly i think that you have quite a bit of FE now, not that the s-n-g won't have some/more, but against many hands you'd clearly like to see the flop even less (those being the full set of hands that would fold preflop).

that's longwinded way of saying "i think you have plenty of FE against bad hands preflop here."

c

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

The thing I think that always pops in my head when I'm defending the SNG is that there is always a reverse answer.

So for everytime you get a better hand to fold or a hand that should call the flop with correct odds to fold, you get a hand to fold that would've doubled you up.

Like, say 66 on an ace high flop, that kind of thing. Or maybe some sort of lowish suited connector. Or even worse, say your opponent has J9o or something and is folding preflop and will fold flop unless he flops a pair. Stuff like that.

So I always think that if you have a strong hand, and I think 77 is v strong in this case, you are probably better off pushing the old fashion way. I think with a hand that is worse vs his range, but one you don't want to fold, this is an interesting option. Say... A stop and go with 97o. It might be +EV, but I haven't given it much thought.

-Jason

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

I agree with this 100%, but in SnG spots 77 is exactly on the border for me. I think you really only lose 55/66 and that 78s and down accounts for a really low % of his raise frequency generally (not everybody plays like you and me). If this were say AQ/88 or even AJ I think its definitely a push.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

i agree that you're probably not losing very many hands that are likely to double you up (high %) in this spot (likely only 55 and 66, though possibly 44 or so, depends on the table dynamics again). i think that strassa was trying to make the more general point as well though, that some people tend to overvalue the stop and go with hands that they should rather run it out with.

i think of much more importance in this hand are the hands that you can get to fold preflop to a push instead of seeing the flop for free and outflopping you 1/3 of the time or whatever. i think that when you're right between 8 and 12 or 14bb is when you have to think the very most about the conflict in interest between folding equity and "run it out bitch, i've got the best hand." i think that here you've got just enough to make him fold a lot of hands that otherwise he'll take that free shot at you with.

c

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

You, know the more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to a push, You also have ton consider A7s/A6s in the misx as far as hands you're ahead of. Or looking at it another way, the guys you have no FE against when you push are the guys who have the wider ranges of hands and are willing to gamble with you (including with hands you beat).

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

[ QUOTE ]
You use the stop n go, when the other player will call your preflop push no matter what and you have a small/medium pocket pair.

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Stop n go works better when you have broadway cards. Makes it more likely your opponent will fold the better hand on the flop (e.g. opponent probably folds 66 on a J-8-3 flop) but if he does call you still have outs.

If you try stop n go when you have a small/medium pocket pair then opponent will play close to FTOP-perfect. E.g. suppose you have 77 and stop-n-go your opponent who has AQ. If the flop comes small cards then you want your opponent to call your flop allin but he usually won't. If he does flop the ace or queen then he'll call and you're drawing very slim.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

I posted this to understand if I indeed have an FE here. Because I agree with Jason that if there is any FE than it should be a push this deep in the tourny.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

This is a very intersting idea. I am such a noob.

RESULTS
 

I said to myself he has to call 100K more, so I pushed. He thought forever called with AQo. flop KQT. Thanks for the replies guys.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

i don't really have any good way of summarizing the fact that i think your post is line by line incorrect.

c

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

If you just call this bet the pot is 102k and you have 93k left behind. Just push it preflop. I think to pull off a stop and go you need to have some reads on the players. Will the player be able to lay down top pair or even middle pair when being offered 2:1 odds??

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you just call this bet the pot is 102k and you have 93k left behind. Just push it preflop. I think to pull off a stop and go you need to have some reads on the players. Will the player be able to lay down top pair or even middle pair when being offered 2:1 odds??

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well, i don't know why you're responding to me with your post, i'm assuming it was just the bottom one in the thread.

you do understand, right, that the point of a stop and go is that 1) people will sometimes fold pocketpairs that now face an overcard 2) people will sometimes fold bottom or 2nd pair on the flop 3) they miss the flop 2/3 of the time?

c

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't really have any good way of summarizing the fact that i think your post is line by line incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean my post? It was correct.

Consider this example: Blinds 500/1000, no ante, you have 9500 chips before posting your big blind. Everyone else at your table has big stacks. Someone raises to 3500 and it's folded to you. If you move in now then opponent will likely call getting 2¼:1 pot odds.

If you have 77 in this spot, stop-n-go is not a good play, for the reasons in my earlier post. If your opponent misses the flop and folds his overcards to your all-in, he will be correct to do so. When you have 77 and stop-n-go, your opponent won't often make an FTOP-mistake in response to your flop all-in. In particular, your opponent will rarely fold the best hand on the flop. Thus you're better off having pushed preflop.

But if you have KQ or AT and decide to stop-n-go, there are all sorts of ways your opponent could fold the best hand on the flop. With KQ or AT in this example, stop-n-go would be better than pushing preflop.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

Yeah your post was just the last one when I started my reply.

I realize all those things I just think the stop and go works best with reads on an oppentent, maybe I have that in my mind from reading HOH2 and should start using this move more often.

Re: Deep in Stars 500K.
 

I would consider a fold also...

The stack size around the table and your position xth / 55th.

Hmmm...Does someone think that you can call and fold to a AKQ flop?

I don't play in these big events, so I would try to move up the ladder more than double up... What are your goals?