Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

Your bankroll is what you have in your poker accounts.

As far as im concerned your bankroll is 0

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

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But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

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This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

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yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

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But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

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yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

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This is nice theory, and works out well conceptually. But it's a very bad approach for the vast majority of individuals and a tremendously bad approach for an investment as volatile and risky as poker for most individuals. Granted, he'll not likely have a better time in life to borrow, and not likely have a better offer than the rate he's being offered now as a student (and I'm not in the UK, so I am extrapolating a bit here) -- but the risk of ruin is high enough and the cost of ruin is tremendous (he's got all his earning power ahead of him, but his credit rating is now taking baby steps), and this aspect should only be a smallish part of his consideration given his OP.

I know you're interested in (and planning on working with) structured financial products and have a very solid understanding of the financial aspects of the proposal; and crunching the raw numbers makes the prospect of borrowing at stable and below-market rates in order to raise capital to invest in slightly riskier but more profitable ventures seems like a no-brainer on paper with your assumptions; but there are a lot of extenuating factors that make this approach a bad approach in real life for an individual even though it looks good on paper. Even with the assumptions you laid out, given all the information OP provided in his post, I think drawing on his available student loans would be a very short-sighted and poorly-considered financial move. I also believe that anyone who turns to an online forum (focusing on poker of all things) for guidance on personal financial matters should never, ever, ever consider employing a leveraged strategy to maximize short-term returns.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I'd agree with the thought that your poker bankroll is $0.

Take a $2K out of your savings and use that only for poker. Never take any more out for poker.

When you start winning, build your bankroll as well as taking some out to spend on...whatever.

I just used part of my bankroll to pay off my student loan. Best decision I ever made. I still have $2K in my bankroll...and since I'm between online 1/2SH & 2/4FR, and 3/6 B&M, I'm very comfortable.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

This is one of the most frightening posts I've ever read.

Start with a coupe hundred and play the micro limits. If you're good enough there you can add an extra hundred bucks a month to your spending money and be happy. I cannot believe someone jumping into poker would consider using student loan money or jumping right into such high stakes.

Does nobody else feel that the OP is asking for all sorts of trouble?

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

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The OP is asking for all sorts of trouble.

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FYP.

There's poker bankroll, and then there's regular money. Never shall the twain meet.

I started my roll with $30 playing .05/.10. Never made another deposit.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But i dont mind using my student loan as a bankroll, im expected to spend that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a piss-poor reason for drawing on a loan if you really don't need to borrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes that may be a piss poor reason, but theoretically, the loan could clealy be considered part of the bankroll. especially if its fairly small sized and a normal student loan interest rate (which isn't very large). then if OP is a winning player and will put in the necessary hours, and doesn't mind risk as an investor, then he should borrow at the low rate and play poker with will yield the winniner player with a larger expected return than not borrowing anything.

there's other assumptions in there but bottom line is if he's a winning player then taking out the loan is perfectly justified given above assumtions.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nice theory, and works out well conceptually. But it's a very bad approach for the vast majority of individuals and a tremendously bad approach for an investment as volatile and risky as poker for most individuals. Granted, he'll not likely have a better time in life to borrow, and not likely have a better offer than the rate he's being offered now as a student (and I'm not in the UK, so I am extrapolating a bit here) -- but the risk of ruin is high enough and the cost of ruin is tremendous (he's got all his earning power ahead of him, but his credit rating is now taking baby steps), and this aspect should only be a smallish part of his consideration given his OP.

I know you're interested in (and planning on working with) structured financial products and have a very solid understanding of the financial aspects of the proposal; and crunching the raw numbers makes the prospect of borrowing at stable and below-market rates in order to raise capital to invest in very very much riskier and probably more profitable ventures seems like a no-brainer on paper with your assumptions; but there are a lot of extenuating factors that make this approach a bad approach in real life for an individual even though it looks good on paper. Even with the assumptions you laid out, given all the information OP provided in his post, I think drawing on his available student loans would be a very short-sighted and poorly-considered financial move. I also believe that anyone who turns to an online forum (focusing on poker of all things) for guidance on personal financial matters should never, ever, ever consider employing a leveraged strategy to maximize short-term returns.

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

notice how i never said it was a good idea for OP to take the loan. all i said is it could be PPPLLUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV (sorry, just saw the bill fillmaff poker videos for the first time recently).

it would be a terrible idea for OP to do it at this moment in time. really bad decision b/c of the extenuating factors you mentioned etc. i probably should have included this statement to the OP in my first posts.

EDIT: i especially agree with your point about the additional likely negative tendencies of somebody who comes to an online poker forum for personal financial advice.

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

I think you should set up some sound bankroll strategy to separate your real life money and your poker money. What I did was set up another student bank account (i'm in the uk too) and a neteller account (in usd). then i just transfer from neteller to the account.

so my bankroll is : sites + neteller + account.

pretty easy to keep track of.

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

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I think you should set up some sound bankroll strategy to separate your real life money and your poker money. What I did was set up another student bank account (i'm in the uk too) and a neteller account (in usd). then i just transfer from neteller to the account.

so my bankroll is : sites + neteller + account.

pretty easy to keep track of.

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thats exactly how i do it.

however, i know if i need it there's money behind it

Barron

Re: What really is my bankroll?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the most frightening posts I've ever read.

Start with a coupe hundred and play the micro limits. If you're good enough there you can add an extra hundred bucks a month to your spending money and be happy. I cannot believe someone jumping into poker would consider using student loan money or jumping right into such high stakes.

Does nobody else feel that the OP is asking for all sorts of trouble?

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I think several of you misread his post - either that, or I did. Didn't he say he's already been playing for a while,and that he's up like 17K? And that the 4K of student loans he's thinking about as part of his bankroll is money that he WOULD have spent for school except he spent poker winnings instead?

Kane, I think your true bankroll, from what you said, is $5K - what you could lose without changing anything about your lifestyle or having complications. Now, since you don't have a ready source to replenish it if you happen to lose it, you should probably be more conservative than the 300 BB rule of thumb - I'd say 500 BB if you were playing limit.

Since you're playing NL and SNGs, you'll have to figure an equivalent to that and then probably pad it some more, since I would think those games have a higher variance than limit (although I have heard the SNGs have a lower variance, I'm not sure I buy that but I don't have much experience to contest it). I would play it safe and aim for the equivalent of a 600 BB limit bankroll.

Also, even though you do seem to have a very good record win-rate-wise, you have to be VERY sure that you are a winning player at whatever game you settle on - bankroll calculations are based on the assumption that you're beating the game, no bankroll is big enough for a losing player.

I think that means that you should move up very slowly, track your results, and play enough hands to get a statistically significant conclusion that you are still beating the game at the higher level. Then move up again. If you run into loses that hurt the bankroll, evenif it's just variance, move down and rebuild.

For example, if you follow my 600 BB suggestion, if you lose 200 BB of that, drop down and build the roll back to 600 before trying again.