5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

Villain is a TAG

3handed Abs 5/10

Hero opens on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] BB 3bets

flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, hero calls

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, hero raises, BB 3bets, hero folds


This is not my standard line, I often just fold the turn.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

Seems fine to me. Sometimes I just call down, too, depending on how the villain's been playing.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems fine to me. Sometimes I just call down, too, depending on how the villain's been playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you call this down? What you you think you are beating from a TAG 3-betting from the BB?

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

I'm a TAG. If I'm in the BB in a 3 handed game and the Button raises, I'm 3-betting a metric [censored]-ton of hands.

So, you're beating decent range of his holdings. But, like I said, it depends on how the TAG has been playing/running. You can't let yourself get pushed around 3-handed... you need to call down with A-high somewhat frequently.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

More in general, what are good flops to make this play? Or against what oponents? Like here, when a "scare" card hits?

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
More in general, what are good flops to make this play? Or against what oponents? Like here, when a "scare" card hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think that's a pretty good board for the play you used. You have some good fold equity, I would think. And it's easy to fold to a 3bet.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

Hi xCeo-

How often do you think you are ahead here on the flop? How often do you think you have even six outs if you're behind?

Absent of any read, I think the BB's 3-bet PF means two broadway cards, a decent king, most aces and probably all pocket pairs. On the flop, you're ahead of KJ-KT, QJ, QT, JT and A4, A5 and A7. Everything else has you drawing at 1 to 6 outs. So if you peel, I think you need to be calling down to showdown. Otherwise this flop needs to be raised or folded.

As played, the only point of raising this turn is if you put him on something like AT. He's obviously not folding a pocket pair of any sort on this board (would you?) And I think he's rarely folding anything that you want him to.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

You make good points Happydayz. When I reread my hand I think that my fold equity is not big enough to make this play on this board against a TAG.

Some alternatives:
- raise flop, call 3bet, fold turn UI (3sb)
- raise flop, bet turn and fold to a c/r (4sb)
- raise flop, take a free card and call river UI (4sb)

- call flop,turn and river (5sb)
- call flop, fold turn (1sb)

I think raising the flop is good, because it gives you some options which are cheaper than my line.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

Just to clarify, when I talked about calling down earlier, I meant without raising the turn.

I clearly don't call down after raising the turn and getting 3bet.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

Ofcourse, I understand. What do you think of raising the flop? And take one of the lines in my post?

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

If you must pull some stunt like this for whatever reason, wait until you have a heart. It gives you an extra chance. There are plenty of opportunities to make big bluffs. You can wait until you have a hand that contains an extra chance or two.

I would peel this flop and fold when I get an awful turn and he persists in betting. This turn raise is definitely spewing.

There is no such rule as call the flop means you must showdown. It is good to take cheap cards on flops like this hoping to:

1. Spike a pair.

2. Get a free card.

3. Pick up a wheelshot in which case you will probably showdown unimproved at a reduced EV cost.

4. At least get a card that doesn't trash your hand the way K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does. You can be flexible about how blank a card you are looking for in order to invest in a showdown against a particular Villain.

This hybrid technique of calling the flop partially to draw and partially to call down is an important technique for combatting excessive weakness.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

I was still thinking about this hand, or more about situations like this. I just came to the conclusion that peeling the flop doesn't make sense against a TAG 3better. He is almost always going to bet the turn again. If you know this on the flop, peeling here is bad because you don't have the odds to call a turnbet. You can improve on the turn, that's true.. But a 8 or A here may not help you very much.

So fold the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ofcourse, I understand. What do you think of raising the flop? And take one of the lines in my post?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some of those can be good as well. If you want him to fold, I think raising the turn is more likely to get it done. If you want to get to showdown, raising the flop is more likely to get you there cheaply.

So, you just gotta pick a read, decide what you want to do, and go from there. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Some alternatives:
- raise flop, call 3bet, fold turn UI (3sb)
- raise flop, bet turn and fold to a c/r (4sb)
- raise flop, take a free card and call river UI (4sb)

- call flop,turn and river (5sb)
- call flop, fold turn (1sb)

I think raising the flop is good, because it gives you some options which are cheaper than my line.

[/ QUOTE ]


As a standard vs. a Tag who 3 bet from the BB I usually call the flop – fold turn UI on that board.

I think Happydaz makes some good points, but I still think as a standard you’re better off just peeling the flop and folding the turn UI. It’s cheap and simple…

Now if you are looking to get aggressive – The flop is the place to do it, but vs. a TAG you will then almost always be forced to check the turn UI. Even when you hit your Ace you should be checking the turn sometimes (when you raised the flop) vs. a TAG.

So I think the best alternative to call flop, fold turn is:

Raise flop, take a free card and fold the river UI…occasionally betting the river when checked to UI - when you have the opportunity to convincingly represent a hand – He will check fold A9+ on some rivers, he will also check fold some pairs if a 4 flush or 4 straight materializes on the board, maybe even a three flush.

I really dislike calling down the whole way (the 5sb alternative) unless this TAG has the specific tendency of following through to the river UI religiously. Or maybe if you have been taken off a lot of hands lately and want to show down just to show down but still…

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

You say he is a TAG but this is three handed. What are his VPIP/PFR/TAF/FB/AtS numbers? At three handed it should be much higher than a six handed game. As a TAG I'm three betting 3 handed with a lot of hands and playing it aggressively even more so than a 5-6 handed game.

If he is a weak TAG at three handed play and is only doing this with good hands you can fold here and run him over later.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He is almost always going to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]
So your Villain not only autobets the flop, he autobets the turn too? He has a wide range for preflop 3-bets and he always puts at least 3 BB in the pot without even looking at the board?

You know that makes him a mindless idiot don't you?

Never raise the flop. Anytime you get a hand you like save it for raising the turn. You'll destroy him.

Loose flop peels are for dealing with sensible players who realize that there is something wrong with autobetting the turn. They have to give a few free cards. Those free cards improve the odds on calling and allow you to slip in a few extra borderline hands.

If he always bets the turn then skip the loose flop peels and take his money with your good hands. If he gives too many free cards then call lots of extra flops.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is almost always going to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never raise the flop. Anytime you get a hand you like save it for raising the turn. You'll destroy him.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you referring to this specific opponent who always bets the turn, or is it your standard operating procedure in blind battles?

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

FLOP: I usually fold the flop. You're usually behind. You have nothing but overcards, if you have six outs you could call, but you can't count on six outs. Say you have three outs. It's a fold.

TURN: I'm definately folding to the first bet. I don't know why you raised.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

I usually fold the flop. When I don't, I fold the turn.

If you post BB's screen name I might be able to say more accurately.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is almost always going to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]
So your Villain not only autobets the flop, he autobets the turn too? He has a wide range for preflop 3-bets and he always puts at least 3 BB in the pot without even looking at the board?

You know that makes him a mindless idiot don't you?

Never raise the flop. Anytime you get a hand you like save it for raising the turn. You'll destroy him.

Loose flop peels are for dealing with sensible players who realize that there is something wrong with autobetting the turn. They have to give a few free cards. Those free cards improve the odds on calling and allow you to slip in a few extra borderline hands.

If he always bets the turn then skip the loose flop peels and take his money with your good hands. If he gives too many free cards then call lots of extra flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar,

Never raising the flop really sucks, especially 3-handed. And in this particular game, there are very very few opponents who will bet the flop and check the turn, ever. I'm going out for dinner but I'll try to elaborate in a bit if I can. I'm posting this short post to try to remind myself that I need to elaborate more on this later.

Re: 5/10 3handed: spewing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is almost always going to bet the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]
So your Villain not only autobets the flop, he autobets the turn too? He has a wide range for preflop 3-bets and he always puts at least 3 BB in the pot without even looking at the board?

You know that makes him a mindless idiot don't you?

Never raise the flop. Anytime you get a hand you like save it for raising the turn. You'll destroy him.

Loose flop peels are for dealing with sensible players who realize that there is something wrong with autobetting the turn. They have to give a few free cards. Those free cards improve the odds on calling and allow you to slip in a few extra borderline hands.

If he always bets the turn then skip the loose flop peels and take his money with your good hands. If he gives too many free cards then call lots of extra flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar,

Never raising the flop really sucks, especially 3-handed. And in this particular game, there are very very few opponents who will bet the flop and check the turn, ever. I'm going out for dinner but I'll try to elaborate in a bit if I can. I'm posting this short post to try to remind myself that I need to elaborate more on this later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Stellar's point is that if this is the case, peeling is hugely -EV, but calling with monsters and raising the turn is hugely +EV.

If the players who 3-bet preflop *always* autobet the flop *and* the turn, regardless of the cards that come, then it's pretty easy to deploy the rope-a-dope strategy to destroy them, and very easy to fold hands like this on the flop. You shouldn't be worried about being too weak by folding on the flop.