A8o
 

Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands (was stealing at a normal rate)

SB is 57/25/3 over 40 hands

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ](2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets.......

EDIT: sorry for ugly post. what did i do wrong with converter?

Re: A8o
 

cr flop...

Re: A8o
 

I would also checkraise the flop unless you have a strong reason to believe he'll raise with overs or won't continuation bet. Against a reasonable player you can fold since the pot is 3way with a loose guy in sb. button usually has a king here unless he's pretty aggro. I'd def call down if it were headsup when he raised.

Re: A8o
 

I would also checkraise the flop unless you have a strong reason to believe he'll raise with overs

aggro factor of 5 (limited sample size, yes)

Re: A8o
 

yea i'm not sure how confident I would be in that agg factor only after 60 hands though. That is really high and seems like it could be an aberration.

Re: A8o
 

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yea i'm not sure how confident I would be in that agg factor only after 60 hands though. That is really high and seems like it could be an aberration.

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agreed.

anyways, i am not concerned with the flop play. sometimes i bet out here, usually i check raise. the river was my dilemma [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: A8o
 

Check raise the flop, call the river. I think this is pretty standard. I hope I'm not wrong [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Re: A8o
 

You called the turn? River blank, you call.

Pretty standard I believe.

Re: A8o
 

Sublime, I don't think he's taking a free showdown with an AQ/AJ sort of hand. He would probably raise a pair on the flop so I think if you call the turn it is because he is bluffing and will fire again on the river, not because you think he will check the river with a worse hand.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sublime, I don't think he's taking a free showdown with an AQ/AJ sort of hand. He would probably raise a pair on the flop so I think if you call the turn it is because he is bluffing and will fire again on the river, not because you think he will check the river with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i called which is my MO in these spots. he showed K7o which probably played a part in me posting, but i like to check in now and again as i dont read the forum much (which i need to change).

Re: A8o
 

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Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands

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It's pretty tough to play against a guy that raises 1% of the time without any cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Once the SB folds, I call this guy down too. If the SB calls, you can muck on the turn.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands

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It's pretty tough to play against a guy that raises 1% of the time without any cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


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Although those stats seem highly suspicious, they are definetly possible. Imagine someone who never voluntarily puts in money on any street, but always raises the BB when it is checked to him. Then try to find some inbetween to get these stats.

Re: A8o
 

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Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands

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It's pretty tough to play against a guy that raises 1% of the time without any cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


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Although those stats seem highly suspicious, they are definetly possible. Imagine someone who never voluntarily puts in money on any street, but always raises the BB when it is checked to him. Then try to find some inbetween to get these stats.

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VPIP and PFR are preflop stats, and all other streets have no bearing on them.

If you NEVER EVER call or check preflop, your VPIP and PFR will be the same number. That is all.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands

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It's pretty tough to play against a guy that raises 1% of the time without any cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

Although those stats seem highly suspicious, they are definetly possible. Imagine someone who never voluntarily puts in money on any street, but always raises the BB when it is checked to him. Then try to find some inbetween to get these stats.

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VPIP and PFR are preflop stats, and all other streets have no bearing on them.

If you NEVER EVER call or check preflop, your VPIP and PFR will be the same number. That is all.

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Err... I don't know why I said "on any street". I meant that you can have a VPIP of 0, by never playing any hand unless it is unraised to you on the button. If you choose to raise some of those hands, your PRF will be greater than 0, while your VPIP will still be 0.

Actually, maybe I am wrong on that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I guess I probably am. Never mind. I thought VPIP was when you called preflop, but I guess it can also be when you raise from the BB.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button is 17/18/5 over 60 hands

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It's pretty tough to play against a guy that raises 1% of the time without any cards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Once the SB folds, I call this guy down too. If the SB calls, you can muck on the turn.

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I'm not particularly worried about the SB beating us here even if he calls the river. If anything, his call probably makes me want to call even more, even though I'm calling anyways without it.

-DrG

Re: A8o
 

You called the turn? River blank, you call

when you combine the odds i am getting on the turn to improve when behind, with the chances he is bluffing/semi bluffing, the turn call is easy.

your taking a far too simplistic view of the situation. there are a lot of players i encounter who wouldnt bet the river here w/o at least a king. of course, being a calldown addict, letting go of hands in that spot is hard for me.

Re: A8o
 

well, there is a way to find out of u have the effective odds to call turn and river. POkerstove a likely range...say u put that range at 90 percent he has it. Then do some unlikely hands he may have make that 10 percent.

Put it into a .9(y)+.1(x) = effective call down odds. I mean, the general play is, u call a turn raise, u are almost commited to calling blank rivers. But that really depends, there is no use if u are sure u are beat more often than the odds u are getting from the pot.

But really this isnt sb vs BB, he u raised on a steal, both u and the sb call. He called your flop bet (check raise next time), and raised with both of u still in the pot. I mean, sure sometimes ppl will get tricky, but its likely he has some sort of hand here. Just because u call the turn does not mean u are forced to call the river. But I think it really becomes clearer on what do do if u CR this flop and then he raises u on the turn (because who knows, he could be the time to call and pop u with A-high or whatever on the turn, figuring your donk bet is weak).

Re: A8o
 

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Check raise the flop, call the river. I think this is pretty standard. I hope I'm not wrong [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

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Re: A8o
 

i cant see any reason not to checkraise the flop.

as is, i like calling down.

Re: A8o
 

c/r that flop.

Re: A8o
 

Its tough with the read, but I think if he was going to aggro bluff raise, hed prolly raise that flop to get the SB out. The fact he just calls, but raises the turn, makes me likely to believe its really more of a hand. If he is bluffing tho, he will always bet this river, so I think if you are unsure enough, its worth the call, both for the odds you are getting, and for some info about his play.

Against the super aggro types, I will check these turns a lot and they pretty much always bet it for me, but not sure if I like that multiway.

I c/r flop as well

Re: A8o
 

Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.

Tough spot on the turn; AK should raise the flop often I assume you are thinking so yes, call.

Therefore, you are likely good here better than 11%, call.

Re: A8o
 

Your flop play is perfect, there is no reason to build a pot with your holding and trying to protect it w/a bet and a possible raise is excellent.

basically what i thought when i did it. granted its only over a small amount of hands, but his aggro factor was high enough that i figured betting into him was the better play here.

i felt like he had a hand on the turn for sure, but getting 7 and change to call with 4+ outs + the bluff % and i figured i should call.

the river is a situation where i would have folded if i had more data on him. with such a small samlple to work with, i would rather be wrong all the time and call then right most of the time and fold.

Re: A8o
 

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cr flop...

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Why?? Why even make a reply like this?

There is no reason to c/r this flop, you hand is weak and you need to protect it. C/R doesn't do it, betting does. C/R'ing builds a nice pot for overs to correctly call. I think this comes right down to that old TOP like process of "think why you raise".

Re: A8o
 

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you hand is weak and you need to protect it

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Are you kidding?? His hand is strong, and in a 3BB pot it hardly needs "protecting". Betting and having each player just call is disastrous here.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to c/r this flop, you hand is weak and you need to protect it. C/R doesn't do it, betting does. C/R'ing builds a nice pot for overs to correctly call. I think this comes right down to that old TOP like process of "think why you raise".

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Betting the flop will work well if the PFR has a worse pair and raises. But that's not a very likely hand for him.

Otherwise I think he calls with overs and raises when you are beat. So you get no protection for your hand when you are ahead and get raised and isolated when you are drawing. Ick.

Supporting data for my view are 1) the tentative read on the Button as a sensible TAG, 2) a flop that should suggest to Button that OP is betting a pair and not bluffing a draw, and 3) Button seeing a SB behind him who is not going to cooperate with an overcard raise by folding a small pair.

OTOH the checkraise is money in the bank. We have much more than 1/3 pot equity so if we can't protect our hand anyway then why not charge the maximum amount and hope for the best?

The flop is very read-sensitive and actual knowledge of how Button plays should supersede the guesswork given above. There are lots of gungho LAG-TAGs who will raise this flop because they are the PFR and it's their turn. If you find one then by all means take advantage.

Re: A8o
 

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Betting and having each player just call is disastrous here.

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So, C/Ring, having him call is??? His read on the PRF is hyper-aggressive, he wants to induce a raise to knock out the SB.

Re: A8o
 

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Betting the flop will work well if the PFR has a worse pair and raises. But that's not a very likely hand for him.


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The likely hand is overcards and his read indeed was...
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There are lots of gungho LAG-TAGs who will raise this flop because they are the PFR and it's their turn

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That's what the OP was tying to do.

Re: A8o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
you hand is weak and you need to protect it

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Are you kidding?? His hand is strong, and in a 3BB pot it hardly needs "protecting". Betting and having each player just call is disastrous here.

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disastrous? i dont see how thatd be disastrous, but i would go for the checkraise here every time...
its called v-a-l-u-e. this guy will not never check the flop through and i like your hand... if you dont cr, u cant cap...

joe tall, why are you always so effing effing concerned w/ "protecting your hand"?? your like a man possessed... scared of a little variance, quit playing SH LHE... i like to get value when i flop the nuts.

OP, river, ez ez call. of course call.

Re: A8o
 

Disastrous in a value sense, clearly.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
your like a man possessed...

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This is very true, however, it's not at all w/protecting my hand. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] I believe it's the correct line in this particular situation.

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scared of a little variance, quit playing SH LHE

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It's been 25yrs of SH play and I'm not going to stop now, nor will I ever.

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i like to get value when i flop the nuts.

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I hear you, but it's not like you have AT on a T-high flop, [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img].

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OP, river, ez ez call. of course call.

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At least you and I actually answered Sublime's original question as many avoided it and we agree on the call too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: A8o
 

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[ QUOTE ]
scared of a little variance, quit playing SH LHE

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It's been 25yrs of SH play and I'm not going to stop now, nor will I ever.

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wow, really? i thought you were a 20something...


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OP, river, ez ez call. of course call.

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At least you and I actually answered Sublime's original question as many avoided it and we agree on the call too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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ya, its not the best spot ever... but we have only three decisions and 2 of them look pretty silly against described player, so i dont see what there is to discuss.

Re: A8o
 

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The likely hand is overcards and his read indeed was...
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There are lots of gungho LAG-TAGs who will raise this flop because they are the PFR and it's their turn

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That's what the OP was tying to do.

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OP really has no read beyond roughly TAG. Consider that 18/17/5 over 60 hands means roughly 10 VP$IPs and 9 PFRs preflop. He's probably seen about 12 flops total and his postflop AF = 5 is probably about 10 bets+raises divided by 2 calls.

The statistical significance of all this is roughly nil. I assume Villain is probably some sort of TAG and I'll bias that range a little toward the tight side. That's my read.

If sublime doesn't think that's a fair assessment of what he knows about Villain then he can adjust my play advice accordingly.

[Side note: that Villain only called once preflop in 60 hands really looks like a fluke. We all have to defend our big blinds and complete the small blind sometimes. If all your playable starting hands in a small sample happen to be PFRs then of course the AF is apt to be abnormally high.]

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
c/r that flop.

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i cannot believe i wrote that. After looking at the stats of button, i want to bet and have him pop the flop. wow am i weird.

Re: A8o
 

Everyone seems to think that a TAG will raise AK on this flop so when he raises turn we have to call it down.

When BB bets out he normally got a pair, even if this flop is pretty drawish. And if he got a pair, he will not give this up, and if he got 8 we are often getting 3bet if we raise on button with our overs.

But if TAG on button call and SB (auto)calls, we got a pot of 9SB and since we probably have to hit anyway I dont see the problem of keeping another guy in.

Also, on turn BB will normally not bet a draw again if both players call flop, but more often if its HU. And if BB was betting a really weak pair he will bet this to less often, maybe he will give up if turn is a bit scary, maybe thinking its to big chance SB is hit by a better pair.

But lets say TAG raises this flop with good overs like AK or AQ. What will he do on turn those 7/8 when he dont hit? Bet again when he just thought other guy flopped a pair? Take a freecard and call river since now we showed weakness? Check and fold river?

If SB folds and BB calls we get 1 to 4 on our flopraise, if we are 3bet even worse. If we just call and SB calls we are getting 1 to 8.

Also: If the TAG on button really wanted the other guy to fold because he thought he was behind attacking on this ragflop with a loose guy in SB got to be wrong? A turnraise if a scary card hit is much stronger, that will often make SB fold and can make BB fold a small pair (or even a pair of 8s). Call flop and raise turn if it is J or higher is a good line, at leat if we think BB is capable of folding a pair.

Maybe what everyone says is that other players - but not me! - would raise this flop with overs. But I think I see it a bit to often from TAGs to really believe this.

Re: A8o
 

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Maybe what everyone says is that other players - but not me! - would raise this flop with overs. But I think I see it a bit to often from TAGs to really believe this.

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I certainly wouldn't raise this flop with AK. There is no reason why a TAG BB would bet out unless he wanted to be raised. If he just wanted to have the flop value bet he would checkcall or checkraise. That's really all Button needs to know about his overcards.

It's also very worth remembering this is a button steal. AK or the like is an unlikely hand. Could be K7 or T9 or ...

I'll fold a lot of steal hands in this situation when BB bets. Why should I try and make something out of QT when I think the BB has a pair and SB is still to act? Thanks for the warning.

Re: A8o
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's also very worth remembering this is a button steal. AK or the like is an unlikely hand. Could be K7 or T9 or ...

I'll fold a lot of steal hands in this situation when BB bets. Why should I try and make something out of QT when I think the BB has a pair and SB is still to act?

[/ QUOTE ]

yep, good points, agree with both

Re: A8o
 

I'll probably get flamed for this, but is the turn an obvious call?

With very little info on villain other than that he might be somewhat reasonable, doesn't his turn raise tell us we're likely beat?

Maybe this is an easy decision for most of you anyway, but my uncertainty about the turn is another reason I'd prefer to c/r the flop.

Re: A8o
 

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wow, really? i thought you were a 20something

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Yes, really, I'm a 30-something, easy decade on the average 2+2er.

Re: A8o
 

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i felt like he had a hand on the turn for sure, but getting 7 and change to call with 4+ outs + the bluff % and i figured i should call.


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But you aren't getting that much if you intend to call a river bet as well. And considering that if you improve you probably only get one additional bet out of villain since you are oop, your implied odds to peel aren't all that great either.

Villain has to be bluffing around 40% of the time for calling down to be correct here because around 15% - 20% of the time he will improve to win anyway.

With implied odds and discounted outs you are getting around 7.5:1 to either peel then check-fold the river unimprovedor to peel and bet/call the river if you hit one of your 5 outs. Your hand is barely good enough to do this.