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-   -   turning good hands into 72o. (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=74895)

TheGrifter 03-21-2004 01:35 PM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
JJ certainly has value from EP. It's certainly worth a limp early in a tourney when the blinds are tiny, and a raise later when everyone tightens up and an UTG raise will grab the blinds.

I actually disagree with you about the assertion that players at stars don't push with crap, there are plenty of hyper-aggresive players in stars multi's at every buy in. However, even if you are correct and you know people aren't likely to come over the top of the a raise with less than QQ-AA then you love JJ in EP.

Especially when the blinds become large I'd toss out a 3 or 4x BB raise with JJ everytime and win a lot of chips when JJ is the best hand out there. (Pretty damn often)

As for open limping with QQ I almost never do, and if I do it is with the intention of limp re-raising if there is a player at the table who has been raising too many pots.

As for AQ in EP I tend to agree with you. But AQ is much much weaker than JJ. I play AQ for an open raise in LP and muck it in EP unless shortstacked in tournies. The exception to this may be if I am in a rebuy or low buy in tourney where people drastically overplay Ax (yes, on stars)

Bluff1 03-21-2004 02:09 PM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
I can understand you reason for limping early when the blinds are small but I still would muck jj. I'm not saying everyone at stars is a two plus twoer all I'm saying is calling reraises with jj, qq, aq at stars is a good way to go broke.

TheGrifter 03-21-2004 03:51 PM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
Anytime someone reraises you, it's time to be cautious but folding QQ to a reraise, I better have a damn good read on a player to do so. If I know that a guy won't make a move without aces or kings in the hole, then sure, I'll fold.

However, if limping and folding to a raise with queens from EP is your standard play then you are giving up a lot of value.

lawsy 03-22-2004 03:16 AM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
i thought that this meant that if youre going to preflop raise in nlhe at a tough table, when players are playing typically tight, you are usually satisfied with stealing the blinds.however it is a shame to:
a)make everyone fold when you have a potentially powerful hand that could win a big pot.
b)as people play tight in tournaments, if you are re raised you may have to muck the hand expensively.

so you may as well steal blinds with trash and let pots brew when legitimate, albeit drawing hands.

if the table isnt tight, then its much harder to steal blinds, and mixing it in the pot with any decent starting hand has got to be worth it!!?

CrisBrown 03-22-2004 03:29 AM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
Hi lawsy,

[ QUOTE ]
if the table isnt tight, then its much harder to steal blinds, and mixing it in the pot with any decent starting hand has got to be worth it!!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands change dramatically in value depending on whether the table is tight or loose. At a loose table, pots tend to go to improved hands (two pair or better), so hands like AQo or TT aren't as strong on their own right.

If you're going to play AQo at a loose table, you're really hoping to hit two pair or a Broadway straight; AQs adds the flush possibility, and that's why you should often muck AQo but play AQs. Similarly, if you're going to play TT at a loose table, you're playing it for set value rather than pair value.

So in general, you'd rather get in cheaply on these hands.

Cris

Bluff1 03-22-2004 03:49 AM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
I don't fold to a raise with qq from an ep. I think I have caused a little be of confusion here. Basically early in a trny from ep I tend to limp in with qq. I will call a raise with it as well. But I won't go all in with qq early playing at stars.

Prickly Pete 03-22-2004 04:28 PM

Re: turning good hands into 72o.
 
Not sure if this was ever really addressed, but look at it like this. There are 3 possibilities once you raise with TT or 72. They can all fold (it didn't matter which you had). Someone can reraise and force you to fold (it didn't matter which you had). Someone can flat call you. Here is why you'd still rather have something like TT rather than 72o. If you hit your set with TT, you're golden. With 72o, you will hate just about every flop.

But I think Sklansky is mostly talking about multi-table tourneys where you don't want to put your life on the line with these "good but not great" hands if you're going to be reraised and have to muck.


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