Holocaust Denial
 

I remember way back in the day my grandfather would write letters to the editor regarding WWII coverage (Remembernce articles and such i guess). He was born in germany moved here and joined our army and went back over to germany and fought for us. every now and then crazy psycho people would look him up in the phone book and call and say the holocaust never happened stop spreading lies etc. These people would claim to be history teachers and all other kinds of stuff. Now my grandfather was as conservative as people come, and he knows it happened, he saw it. So how do these people really think it never happened? Is anyone here informed enough to debate for them? I doubt we have anyone this stupid on here. I cant even fathom how someone can think this. Even the reasons Wikipedia had, seemed rather outlandish. Either way, i just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could belive this.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

I never understood holocaust deniers either, especially when it's one of the most well documented events in human history.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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Either way, i just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could belive this.

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they can't

Holocaust Denial
 

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How do these people really think it never happened? Is anyone here informed enough to debate for them? I just want to know how anyone other then complete and total nazi/moron could believe this.

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The arguments of the "Holocaust Revisionists" are based mainly on two tenets:

1. There is no explicit Nazi order or decision extant that directly and in no uncertain terms commands the extermination of the Jews. *

2. The number of "Six Million Dead" is arbitrary, unsupported by facts and propagandist.

I have read a lot of the literature put out by Revisionists, eg Butz, Maurisson. Let's deal with their work very quickly here:

EVEN IF THE ABOVE ARE TRUE, we do have a holocaust of Jews by the Nazis and this is evidenced by what has been actually documented (i.e. the ideological manifestos, the actual Nazi treatment of "inferior races",etc). In other words, even if historican never unearth an order directing Jews to be gassed, the totally inhumane, beastly treatment of people by the Nazis (whereby humans were reduced to something inferior than animals), is absolutely equivalent to giving an order to kill.

And even if the "correct" figure turns out to be indeed much less than "Six Million", so what? It is still an absolute holocaust, mass murder on a scale that henceforth renders poetry impossible, as the philosopher mourned.

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My grandfather ... went ... to Germany and fought. He knows it happened, he saw it.

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Your grandpa saw camps. He did not see the plan nor the order for the Jews' extermination. But what he saw (and what we all found out from a distance) is I believe tantamount to organised, pre-planned, systematic murder, i.e. a holocaust.

Please note that the Russian POWs suffered almost as badly as the Jews in WWII, at the hands of the Nazis, and also the Gypsies, and other tribes or "scum" like homosexuals.

--Cyrus
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* The argument of Revisionists goes like this, about the death camps and the gas chambers: The Germans in WWII desperately needed human slave labour. They needed those who were able to work. Therefore, the Nazis would not have been stupid to kill off the labor they needed so much. The people who were put to death were either unable to work or sick. (Note that a typhus epidemic was indeed coming down in the prisons, at the time. This has been documented by Red Cross, among others.) The Revisionists claim that the gassing was done in order to kill safely those infected and fumigate the area at the same time.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

ignorance is a powerful thing in the hands of stupid people.

I seem to remember a tv special - (I THINK it was part of the Band of Brothers DVD series) - where Eisenhower ORDERED all his troops to walk thru the camps - He said that someday, they were going to deny this ever happened, and he wanted as many eyewitnesses as possible.

Smart guy, that Eisenhower.

RB

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

Very impressive!

I can't believe I agree 100% with a Cyrus post and see fair treatment of the facts at hand, especially on such a sensitive issue.

It's good to see America is (still?) the land of free speech. I wish it were the same in Europe. This dude was deported and sentenced to prison for "thought crimes" which consist of nothing more than scientifically questioning the validity of the official version of the holocaust.

As long as racist laws like these in Germany are tolerated there will be no chance for world peace IMO.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

While I don't agree with the guy getting locked up, ignoring such an overflowing amount of evidence for no valid reason isn't very sound.

My guess is most people that deny the holocaust would probably be bad poker players.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The germans are very strict about speech related to the Nazi Party - I would imagine denying the Holocaust to them could be tantamount to slander or libel - it's that important to them.

Plus they take a very low stand on Nazi stuff - they ban the swastika - all my WWII games use that stupid Luftwaffe cross to represent Germans instead of the Swastika.

I don't see where throwing a neo-nazi in prison for saying the Holocaust didn't happen is a sign of the end of freedom for Western Civilization....I think you'd almost have to be as ignorant as the revisionists to make that assumption. Esp. since the vast majority of revisionists also preach hate and White Supremacy.

If hate speech is banned, and if the law decides that Revisionist thinking is tantamont to Hate Speech, then they go in jail - In a way, I would imagine a guy going around the US saying lynchings didn't happen and that slavery wasn't all that bad would probably find himself in court sooner or later for simply stating lies as published facts.

Personally, let the guy get ass-raped by a big thug named Bubba for all I care - Civilization would not be any worse off in the slightest if every Neo-Nazi died a horrible death in a prison camp, preferably with the same anticpation and horror the Jews faced in the concentration camps.

RB

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

There was a thread in OOT a while back, where I mentioned that it was stupid that people who want to debate the factual evidence of what took place, (for example if the 6 million killed is accurate) are lumped in the same catagory as those who beleive the holocaust is made up. I was called a holocaust denier and told to shut up. People are real open minded, but only when they want to be.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

New Zealand's Holocaust denial problem

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The New Zealand Jewish Council while accepting Hayward's subsequent apology and withdrawal of his main conclusions, wondered how a Holocaust Denial thesis could have been accepted for examination and approved with a First Class Honours at Canterbury. The President of the New Zealand Jewish Council, David Zwartz, called upon the University to cancel the Master's degree awarded to Hayward on the basis of his thesis.


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These people are not morons, what they are is dangerous, sinister, and deluded.

Mack

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

I agree. The problem with the 6 million number argument is --- does the actual number make that big of a difference to argue about? I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that the number was lower. That doesn't change how horrible it was. Why you might have been labelled a denier is that a common tactic of deniers is to suggest that if the 6 million number is wrong, then we can't believe much about the holocaust at all. They suggest that the house of cards falls because that one number is wrong. Also, one has to wonder why someone would take the time to deny the 6 million number --- what are there motives.

As Sarah Silverman tells: My favorite niece learned in school that Hitler killed 60 million Jews. Sarah corrects her -- It was six million -- and her niece says dismissively, "Yeah, whatever. What's the difference?" Aunt Sarah delivers a stern rebuke: "I'll tell you the difference, young lady: 60 million would be unforgivable!"

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

The guy did his own research and backed up his claims with his own findings. I'd say anyone who prefers blindly believing the media vs. thinking for himself can't be a very good poker player.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

"Civilization would not be any worse off in the slightest if every Neo-Nazi died a horrible death in a prison camp, preferably with the same anticpation and horror the Jews faced in the concentration camps.

RB"

Please furnish a list of some other groups who deserve this fate. I'll be seizing world power soon, and I'd like to make sure we wipe out everyone whose views you disagree with.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

The guy is a loon. A simple web search will show several thorough debunkings of his "research." He was a grad student at one point and abused his position to try and lend further credence to his screed.

If you are looking for a martyr, may I suggest you try someone else.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

If that is so obvious, then why is it so important to put the guy in jail? Wouldn't it be easier to just publicize the proof that his claims are invalid?

Think about psychology for a moment. What gets people riled more, stuff that is obviously false, or stuff that has truth to it?

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

Did you mean that as a reply to me or to RB?

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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If that is so obvious, then why is it so important to put the guy in jail? Wouldn't it be easier to just publicize the proof that his claims are invalid?


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When the people you are trying to convince are irrational, a rational argument would fail.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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When the people you are trying to convince are irrational, a rational argument would fail.

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True, that is why I no longer try to convince the "Bush lied" people. Facts don't matter, they are convinced that Bush lied and it is their most deeply held belief, the truth be damned.

6 million
 

Most Historians believe 6 million Jews is a fairly accurate estimate. The Nazis were very meticulous in recording everything. This ranged from property seized, to people gassed. the Nazis were hell bent on cleansing all of Europe from inferior races, and that meant finding names, addresses etc... Which is also what makes holocaust denial so difficult, because most of the evidence for the holocaust was kept by the Nazi's themselves

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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I don't see where throwing a neo-nazi in prison for saying the Holocaust didn't happen is a sign of the end of freedom for Western Civilization

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Throwing people in jail for expressing historical falsehoods or opinions you don't agree with is a major blow against everything that I consider freedom.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt the Holocaust took place and suggested the Jewish state of Israel be moved to Europe."

link

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt the Holocaust took place and suggested the Jewish state of Israel be moved to Europe."


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Does anybody here think the Israelis will launch an air strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities the way they did on Iraq's in the early 80's? And would that start a major war?

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt the Holocaust took place and suggested the Jewish state of Israel be moved to Europe."


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Does anybody here think the Israelis will launch an air strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities the way they did on Iraq's in the early 80's? And would that start a major war?

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yeah, I can't imagine Israel would allow Iran to go nuclear.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

sorry. responding to the other guy.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

This is a horrible post.

Ignoring these views, or imprisoning the supporters doesn't make the situation go away. And then at the end you say you hope every Neo-Nazi dies, because what they did in WWII.... is that not hypocritical?

People can say whatever they want ignorance is not illegal in America, but apparently it is in Germany.

Also removing Nazi symbols from video games what’s the point? It's like censoring To Kill a Mockingbird because if its racial language. It changes the environment and ruins the meaning of the story.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

Exactly the Nazi's might as well have won the war

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

They won't unless the United States tells them to, or at least complete US support. Doing such an action would to greatly strain the palistinian peace process, and relations with the United States.

If they did the worst possible senario.. United States Isreal India and european supporters vs Iran Russia Middle east and asian (who knows maybe china) supporters.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

IS IT ILLEGAL TO BE DUMB, or IRRATIONAL? HE SHOULDN'T BE JAILED

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

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"Civilization would not be any worse off in the slightest if every Neo-Nazi died a horrible death in a prison camp, preferably with the same anticpation and horror the Jews faced in the concentration camps.

RB"

Please furnish a list of some other groups who deserve this fate. I'll be seizing world power soon, and I'd like to make sure we wipe out everyone whose views you disagree with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautifully said! LOL what a douche

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

AND WAY SHOULD THEY BE JAILED FOR SPEAKING?

YOU GUYS SOUND MORE LIKE NAZI's THEN THEM

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

People in Europe are just to sensitive. I heard that a French politician was fined 200,00 $ for saying the holocaust was a minor detail. He is a jerk for saying it, but a fine?

German efficiency : \"Endlösung der Judenfrage\"
 

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Most Historians believe 6 million Jews is a fairly accurate estimate. The Nazis were very meticulous in recording everything. This ranged from property seized, to people gassed. Most of the evidence for the holocaust was kept by the Nazi's themselves.

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There has been no proper/scientific determination of the number of European Jews murdered by the Nazis. And as I already said, it may turn out that the Jews that perished were much less than Sxi Million, e.g. that they were in fact Three And A Half Million. In addition to this, I have not, pesonally, seen any credible documentation that has the Nazi leadership ordering the extermination of the Jews. (All we have is the infamous Wannsee conference of Nazi officials, but without convincing records either.)

There is, on the contrary, historical evidence of the Nazis planning as the "final solution" to the problem a "mass and forced" evacuation of Jews from Germany and Europe and their relocation elsewhere, possibly ..Madagascar! (Yes, it was been considered seriously by many parties.) What is astonishing, incidentally, is that the Zionist leadership of the time, and especially some grossly misguided Zionists in Germany tried to collaborate with the Nazis, in order to achieve an orderly evacuation of Jews elsewhere, and preferably Palestine. (Some even offered to fight alongside Germany against Britain, if they were promised British-held Palestine after the war!)

No matter.

I already wrote up my own (final) solution to this artificial dilemma: <font color="red"> SO WHAT? </font>

So what if there is indeed no "explicit" order for the extermination? So what if the figure is less than Six Million? This does not make the crime any less monstrous and it does not make the Nazis any less guilty of it. I have no time arguing minutae of mass murder with anti-semites --- some of whom are already active in this thread. Simon Wiesental was totally correct to hunt them down mercilessly; the Israelis were totally correct in tracking and abducting/assassinating every single officer and functionary of the killing machine they could get their hands on; the Soviets were totally correct in blocking any attempt at clemency towards imprisoned Nazis, including the "old and frail" Rudolph Hess.

It was a holocaust. End of story.

Miss me?
 

There is, on the contrary, historical evidence of the Nazis planning as the "final solution" to the problem a "mass and forced" evacuation of Jews from Germany and Europe and their relocation elsewhere, possibly ..Madagascar! (Yes, it was been considered seriously by many parties.) What is astonishing, incidentally, is that the Zionist leadership of the time, and especially some grossly misguided Zionists in Germany tried to collaborate with the Nazis, in order to achieve an orderly evacuation of Jews elsewhere, and preferably Palestine. (Some even offered to fight alongside Germany against Britain, if they were promised British-held Palestine after the war!)

Zionist negotiation with the Nazis is not evidence of anything other than Zionists negotiating with Nazis. The fact that the Zionists were negotiationg with the nazis is a de minimis effect when you consider the intention of the Zionists was to save the Jews living in Europe from their usual discrimination at the Nazis hands. In other words, mere negotiating with a party is not evidence of concurrence of ideologies. It is only evidence that there was some mutual gain to be made through the negotiation.

In an analogous situation, if you could negotiate with the devil to provide him some benefit in exchange for permanent peace...

Prefer ya gone
 

This is supposed to be a thread about Holocaust deniers. And I'd hate to see it hijacked by the likes of you. That said, I'm pleased to see you, as the air marshal said.



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Mere negotiating with a party is not evidence of concurrence of ideologies.

[/ QUOTE ] You and I know that the right wing Zionists' hyper-nationalism of the time coincided neatly with the National-Socialist ideology. The poor dumb f*cks simply did not understand that, although right wing Zionists shared with the Nazis an abhorrence of socialism, bolshevism and democracy, the Jews were simply on the Nazis' sh*t list and would NEVER make the list the Italian fascists were on.

You may know (and try to gloss it over) but other people do not know that there was both a lot of (how did you put it?) concurrence of ideology AND collaboration.

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It is only evidence that there was some mutual gain to be made through the negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ] "Mutual gain", huh ? Tell us about the German right-wing Zionists' offer to fight alongside the Nazis against Britain in World War II. Go on.



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Zionist negotiation with the Nazis is not evidence of anything other than Zionists negotiating with Nazis.

[/ QUOTE ] Zing ! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

The Canadian Ernst Zundel was jailed and deported even though he broke no law due to his stance on the holocaust. That's illegal and tantamount to Nazism.

The word "Holocaust Denier" is left wing propaganda itself. Pro Zionist lobbyists and left wingers purposely try to distort the facts with these kind of catch phrases. I do not know people who deny that the holocaust or some grave injustice took place during WWII against the Jews. What they are arguing about are the numbers, intent, methods etc.

We know with certainty that the numbers of Holocaust victims were purposely inflated right after World War II by Zionist groups to gain sympathy in their formation of Israel. There use to be a plaque at Auschwitz that said "8 million died here" which was changed to 6 million, then 4 million, and then it disappeared altogether. The Soviets purposely inflated Nazi crimes to cover up their own.

The Iranian Prime Minister is stating a half truth by implying that the Holocaust is a lie. What is true is that numbers were purposely inflated to gain international sympathy in forming the state of Israel (1948) which is an injustice against the arabs.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

The Canadian Ernst Zundel was jailed and deported even though he broke no law due to his stance on the holocaust.

Criminal Code s.319:
(1)Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of:

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for
two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Criminal Code

The leading case in this field is R. v. Buzzanga and Durocher (1980), 49 C.C.C. (2d) 369, (Ont. C.A.), in which the accused distributed tongue-in-cheek flyers satirizing hatred and were still charged under s.319(2). It ended up decided in favour of the Crown because even though they didn't have the requisite mens rea of promoting actual hatred, they knew it was likely to and it oblique intent is equally as culpable as direct intent.

The rest of your post is the saddest misconstruction of facts I've ever seen.

Re: Holocaust Denial
 

On which of these points was Ernst Zundel convicted after due process of law?

Why did he spend several years in prison for an unconvicted offense that at the most would lead to two years of imprisonment?

And finally, the facts above may make you cry out of sadness, but which of them is false?

Re: Prefer ya gone
 

It seems to me that there are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

Some of these deniers are adherents of 'the big lie' - that is, the Holocaust never occurred, and is merely Jewish or Zionist propganda.

Others are minimizers - they acknowledge that "something" happened, but try to chip away at the scope and scale of the Holocaust.

Then there are the obfuscators - those who try to muddy the waters and raise extaneous and tangential issues in an attempt to divert and distract from the sheer horror of the Holocaust.

Some of these types are easy to spot. They are vicious haters, plain and simple, and are obvious to all.

Others are more insidious - they understand how most decent people would be appalled at those who attempt to lie about, minimize, distort, and obfuscate the historical facts of the holocaust. So they cloak their hatreds and their agendas with a veneer of civility and politeness.

Observant ones will not be fooled.

Re: Prefer ya gone
 

You must be a very good psychologist for being able to draw such firm conclusions about human emotions on such little information. Congratulations.

Re: Prefer ya gone
 

Thank you for your kind words.

It's nice to be appreciated.