Should I give up online poker?
 

Many of you here have known me since I've posted for about 2 years now. You all mainly know me for saying some sites are rigged. Yes I know the saying, "if you think online poker is rigged you are a bad player".

I have been playing online for about 4 years, live for 10.

I just cannot seem to consistantly win online. I have some huge swings cashing out 500 then losing a big amount.

When I play live I win lesser amounts but win more consistantly. I don't see myself as a bad player. 10 years of experience should be more than enough to grasp the game. I play decent starting hands only bluff in position. However I do go on tilt at times and that is my biggest downfall.

Should I just give up playing online? For starters I really don't trust it. Second I feel it is way too volatile.

Thoughts?

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I give up online poker?

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Yes

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I give up poker?

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Yes

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Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I just give up playing online?
Thoughts?

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Maybe.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

You could just learn how to play.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

without a doubt something-clever is correct.

(nice honest post though Gabby).

blaming it on the nature of online play is inappropriate.

it is an extremely beatable game...and feeling like you have a 'grasp' of how to play just because you have played for 10 years is not the correct approach to take.

If you are losing, then you aren't playing well.


There was that whole bit about the 2000:1 nature of the inside-straight draw beating you and some other incorrect math ideas that lead me to believe there is much you could learn.


I suck at math....but at least I KNOW that I suck at math...and I take some steps to counter that a bit.
First is just listening to those on the forums who I know are strong players.

There are some terrific players on these forums who are willing to share their ideas with those who listen.

If you choose not to accept their ideas that's up to you.



However, if you just think the online-game is 'not right' and there's no way you can get around this mindset then I just don't see why you would want to play there in the first place.
If you think it's 'rigged' (or whatever) then certainly you shouldn't be playing there. That's common-sense.


It's up to you whether to accept that it's legit and play accordingly...or whether it's not-legit and simply stop playing there.
I don't see how there is much in-between in this matter...but evidently there are lots of players out there who think the cards "aren't right" online but who keep playing there anyway. It's a mentality I will probably never understand.



Also - I don't know what stakes you are playing....but $500 swings don't sound that 'huge' to me.
they are if you are playing .5/1 limit I suppose...but I seem to recall that you played NL-100 and NL-200 some (and on a shortish bankroll sometimes) if I'm not mistaken.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

The obvious quick answer seems to be, yes. You don't win; you tilt; you think the games might be rigged.

However, you have played for four years and unless you have suddenly decided you can't afford your losses, or you don't enjoy spending your time playing online any more, then stopping what for you has been the equivalent for others of watching TV, or playing sports, or having fun with their families, or whatever, and has been your entertainment, would leave a void in your life which could actually cause you unhappiness and malcontent.

Obviously, something has changed, or you wouldn't be asking the question, and you "want" to give it up. Therefore, I would suggest that instead of your making a promise to yourself that you might not be able to keep and saying that you will never play online again, you should promise yourself that you won't play online again until the 1st January 2006.

Then, on that date, you will be able to start playing again, or give it up for another month, or give it up altogether, from a position of knowledge of yourself, and with self integrity.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

You are a big part of my online monthly income, please don't quit.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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You could just learn how to play.

[/ QUOTE ]


quit or do this.

You'll become a default winner by reading (and paying attention) SS, SSNL, or the SNG forum a few hours a week.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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You could just learn how to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

or learn gambling theory

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Think about all the winning players that depend on you. It wouldn't be fair to them if you quit. Stop being so selfish.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Before you decide to give up, try one of the PokerNexus network sites. If you can't beat the games there, then you know you have a major leak.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

if in 4 years of playing online you still are thinking this way then i think you should consider playing live more. i would honestly say quitting isnt a bad option but why quit? if you are making any profit at all just keep improving. you are not going to be the next ivey but atleast your making something.. and cashing out 500? after 4 years of play your cashouts should be 4-5digits not 3.. but anyway maybe you should just play live more. and seriously.. 4 years of playing online and you still dont trust it?? maybe u should just quit online altogether.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Yes

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

In 6 months I have made 2600 at .5/1 just from bonuses. A trained monkey can make 5 grand a year playing poker just with bonuses.

Start from square 1 and knock off all the easy deposit bonuses out there.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Nothing wrong with playing live only.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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I have some huge swings cashing out 500

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Thats a huge swing? Thats one hand in NL, won or lost.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I just give up playing online? For starters I really don't trust it. Second I feel it is way too volatile.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first thing you have to understand about online poker is that everybody wins. Everyone who responded to your post bragged about how well they are doing. [Maybe not overtly, but the implication is there.] They kill the online games. How many people have you talked to who don't clean up playing online?

I have trouble beating the online games. I don't win anywhere near what I should be winning facing the competition I'm facing--which is the weakest I've ever seen anywhere.

I make 90% of my income playing live with real people. I know lots of great players who can't win playing online. And when I say win, I mean win significantly. As bad as the players are I should be KILLING online poker, but I'm not. How often do I have to beat my head against the wall before I figure out that making $10 an hour playing online is a waste of my time.

I hang out here to help my girlfriend. She used to watch me play and said she'd like to give it a try. So she watched me, and I explained what I was doing and why. She started with $100 and did the rakeback, bonus thing whenever possible. I'd read the boards and fill her in on all the latest deals and utilites to make the game go more smoothly. But I wouldn't let her use Poker Tracker. I told her that was just a crutch that you wouldn't be able to use when you started playing live, so why become dependent upon something that you should be doing for yourself with your own observational skills. [Of course this is where all of the online geniuses say, "well you don't win because you don't use Poker Tracker," which of course is nonesense, but it makes them feel superior.] Use your brain and you can beat the game; you just won't be able to beat it for much. You don't need any crutches. Just pay attention, play solid poker, play within your bankroll, and you'll know what to do.

So she played and grinded and got bonuses and now she has about $3000 and she's thrilled. [A large chunk of that is from bonuses, by the way--A year and a half later.]

Online poker: I don't trust it one bit, but I still play once in a while. If you can't see em shuffle, deal and cut the cards you'd better be damn careful especially when the only outlet you have to complain to is the site itself.

But like I said everybody here wins, so take what I say and what everyone else says with a very large grain of salt.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

I understand you have played a lot but 10 years of experience is often the first year repeated 10 times. Working on improving your game is one of the better ideas. Online is a great place to do that because the stakes go much smaller and the ability to track and replay your hands via software.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

I enjoy playing live much more than online. At the moment I live about 4 hrs from AC so I'm stuck online more than live so I've been trying to make the most of it. I'm not a huge fan of online but I've forced myself to give it a chance. I was very close to quitting early on but decided to leave 50 profit on and start out in the micros and build it up. If you're not depending on it for income its a very good way to work on your game with low risk. Just something to think about.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I just give up playing online? For starters I really don't trust it. Second I feel it is way too volatile.

Thoughts?

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The first thing you have to understand about online poker is that everybody wins. Everyone who responded to your post bragged about how well they are doing. [Maybe not overtly, but the implication is there.] They kill the online games. How many people have you talked to who don't clean up playing online?

I have trouble beating the online games. I don't win anywhere near what I should be winning facing the competition I'm facing--which is the weakest I've ever seen anywhere.

I make 90% of my income playing live with real people. I know lots of great players who can't win playing online. And when I say win, I mean win significantly. As bad as the players are I should be KILLING online poker, but I'm not. How often do I have to beat my head against the wall before I figure out that making $10 an hour playing online is a waste of my time.

I hang out here to help my girlfriend. She used to watch me play and said she'd like to give it a try. So she watched me, and I explained what I was doing and why. She started with $100 and did the rakeback, bonus thing whenever possible. I'd read the boards and fill her in on all the latest deals and utilites to make the game go more smoothly. But I wouldn't let her use Poker Tracker. I told her that was just a crutch that you wouldn't be able to use when you started playing live, so why become dependent upon something that you should be doing for yourself with your own observational skills. [Of course this is where all of the online geniuses say, "well you don't win because you don't use Poker Tracker," which of course is nonesense, but it makes them feel superior.] Use your brain and you can beat the game; you just won't be able to beat it for much. You don't need any crutches. Just pay attention, play solid poker, play within your bankroll, and you'll know what to do.

So she played and grinded and got bonuses and now she has about $3000 and she's thrilled. [A large chunk of that is from bonuses, by the way--A year and a half later.]

Online poker: I don't trust it one bit, but I still play once in a while. If you can't see em shuffle, deal and cut the cards you'd better be damn careful especially when the only outlet you have to complain to is the site itself.

But like I said everybody here wins, so take what I say and what everyone else says with a very large grain of salt.

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Totally agree. Thanks for the input!

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Thanks to Mike Haven and Bob for the advice.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Learn Omaha/8 and switch to PLO8 as fast as you can. You play a half-decent game and you will win consistently.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

I was reading your post and nodding my head about alot of things you said. Does it seem like online poker is rigged sometimes? It does to me sometimes too. Of course that defies what all the experts and experienced posters here say and given their success who am I to argue?

I am not one of the young pups here who find making unkind remarks and insults to anyone's benefit and I feel badly when someone asks for sincere input from his comrades and just gets smart ass remarks.

Like you, I've been playing poker for many years(since the late 80s) then I started playing on the internet back around 8yrs ago when Casino Coco opened up (Planet Poker). Not only have I noticed that poker has changed over the years but internet poker has changed too. I think people watching final tables on TV has alot to do with it. There are so many dummies playing now which I know is supposed to be a good thing. In a live game it seems so much easier to get the chips than online. The reasons are easy to see... If you are not "technically" equipped with your PT, your PA, your PTA, you're flying blind most of the time and playing holdem might as well be a crap shoot when noone respects your raise and you find yourself sitting with AA against 5 other people that called. I've found that say on Party Poker it doesn't matter how much money is in the game, it means nothing to so many people. You might be moving up to play 10-20 and that's a big game. But it might be pennies to the other players. Sometimes I go watch the really high limit players. They play just as bad. Obviously they can afford it, good for them. Some 16 years ago, when I decided I really wanted to learn I ordered every Sklansky book I could from the Gamblers Book Store (and ok I admit it, I got Capeletti's book too but that's another story) and I still remember his "beware of AQ".... These days, any ace is in with any other card, it's raised, it's called, it's just not the same poker world any more. The odds are the odds are the odds, this I know. The problem for me with online holdem is the rate at which the odds are defied but it can be understood when realizing 1) the players see no buggars & 2) so many hands are being generated that we notice it more readily . Other disadvantages: 1) no audio-visual tells & 2) whether we are in fact playing the same person we see on screen as opposed to his wife, girlfriend, kid or cat for one or more hand which then messes with our thinking of his play.

Does this mean the game is not beatable? Of course not as observed from this forum. But for me it has meant changing my play and my games. Whereas I am very comfortable in a medium to high limit live holdem game, I struggle with any "limit" holdem game online so I play PL. I also play alot of omaha hi-lo. I've had to adjust my thinking too. I don't assume the raise means something specific, something I'd recognize in live play, it could mean something or nothing and I may not get a chance to get a good read on anyone so I must rely on the odds. My problems come into play when I play at something I am not comfortable with, so by trial and error I have found a comfort zone.

And maybe that's all it is with you too, finding the place in online poker where you fit in, where you feel comfortable playing whether it's a different limit, a different game, a different site.

Best wishes whatever you decide but don't let the 2 second bratty responses make you think you're a bad player if you've been a winning live game player.

And that folks is this slow & steady grinder woman's 2 cents!

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Gabbyyyyy, Are you playing the same limits online and live? I think it is generally accepted that the equivalent online game is much tougher. You say the players are just as bad online, but if you're playing the same limits, they're not. Also, you see a lot more bad plays online because you see a lot more plays. This may be the reason you think online players suck just as bad as live players.
Finally, tilting online costs more. Tilting for ten minutes online, because of the increased number of hands, is very expensive. (Though I'm sure we all do it) Reducing your propensity to tilt would make a good start to beginning to win online.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

i made like 35-40,000 my first year playing ( and that was while moving from .25/.50 up to 5/10. i've made like 10,000 so far in this first month of my second year playing. there's something you aren't doing right because there's a lot that i'm sure i'm doing wrong and i'm doing very well.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Should I give up poker?

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Yes

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Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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If you are not "technically" equipped with your PT, your PA, your PTA, you're flying blind most of the time

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Nope.

I don't use any of this and do just fine with notes on players.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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If you are not "technically" equipped with your PT, your PA, your PTA, you're flying blind most of the time

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Nope.

I don't use any of this and do just fine with notes on players.

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you're selling yourself short wether you want to accept it or not. i thought i was doing just fine without it too until i got it and my winrate went way up.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

No offense, but if you think online poker is rigged, play online poker, and lose while playing online poker, you should not gamble.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

As you know I am one of your biggest fans, to a point if it makes you stop posting then yes please stop playing.

However I am not a total [censored], so far in the main you have always posted in the internet forum, probably the least informed full of idiots forum on here (well apart from the WPT forum) apologies to some you know who you are. So why not try taking part regulary in the relevant subforum for whatever game and limits you are playing online, post hands join in the discussions and use the great resource 2+2 is.

Online and live is different, live can be a looser fishier game and it maybe you are playing too many hands online in a slightly tighter game than you should be etc etc etc.

Instead of moaning try studying and learning and see if in 6 months you are winning online player.

Also post your thoughts in psycology cos if in your mind you think it is against you before you play a hand, its not the best frame of mind to be starting playing let alone to accept and play well when the suckouts come than many of us ignore and move on. Some there may have some hints and tips to make you positive and stop the tilting.

Iam sure we can turn you to the dark side of enjoying online poker if you are prepared to put the effort in as well.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Of course this is where all of the online geniuses say, "well you don't win because you don't use Poker Tracker," which of course is nonesense, but it makes them feel superior.]

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You're dumb.

You're right, if I was playing only 1 or 2 tables, i wouldn't need poker tracker, none of us would, (edit: to keep track of opponents) we could use our own "observation skills." But I'd like to see how you can keep track of the players at four or more tables without some kind of software to help you. And that's your other problem, people who are "killing" the online games, are making a ton because they're multi-tabling.

Finally, you're statement that players online are "the worst anywhere," implying they are worse than live players just shows that you don't know what a bad player is. The players who play live are worse than online at similar limits, there really is no room for argument about this. Probably, you're just a bad player, and you don't understand a lot of the plays you see online.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Learn Omaha/8 and switch to PLO8 as fast as you can. You play a half-decent game and you will win consistently.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shh! The first rule of PLO8 is...

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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playing holdem might as well be a crap shoot when noone respects your raise and you find yourself sitting with AA against 5 other people that called.

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Okay, not trying to be snotty here, but you've been playing for 20+ years and you still say stuff like this.

To be sure, there are different winning styles, and it takes a different style to beat a game where 5 people coldcall when you raise with aces.

But your statement belies an overall lack of understanding about the fundamental nature of poker. This is something I've seen a lot in longtime B&M players.

Read Small Stakes Hold 'Em, fer chrissakes.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

Your right, I should have PM'd him!

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

yes.

1) you don't like it
2) you don't make money at it

c

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

If you multi-table, that is one of the differences from playing live. Drop a table or two? Ignore if this assumption is incorrect.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

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Think about all the winning players that depend on you. It wouldn't be fair to them if you quit. Stop being so selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was reading your post and nodding my head about alot of things you said. Does it seem like online poker is rigged sometimes? It does to me sometimes too. Of course that defies what all the experts and experienced posters here say and given their success who am I to argue?

I am not one of the young pups here who find making unkind remarks and insults to anyone's benefit and I feel badly when someone asks for sincere input from his comrades and just gets smart ass remarks.

Like you, I've been playing poker for many years(since the late 80s) then I started playing on the internet back around 8yrs ago when Casino Coco opened up (Planet Poker). Not only have I noticed that poker has changed over the years but internet poker has changed too. I think people watching final tables on TV has alot to do with it. There are so many dummies playing now which I know is supposed to be a good thing. In a live game it seems so much easier to get the chips than online. The reasons are easy to see... If you are not "technically" equipped with your PT, your PA, your PTA, you're flying blind most of the time and playing holdem might as well be a crap shoot when noone respects your raise and you find yourself sitting with AA against 5 other people that called. I've found that say on Party Poker it doesn't matter how much money is in the game, it means nothing to so many people. You might be moving up to play 10-20 and that's a big game. But it might be pennies to the other players. Sometimes I go watch the really high limit players. They play just as bad. Obviously they can afford it, good for them. Some 16 years ago, when I decided I really wanted to learn I ordered every Sklansky book I could from the Gamblers Book Store (and ok I admit it, I got Capeletti's book too but that's another story) and I still remember his "beware of AQ".... These days, any ace is in with any other card, it's raised, it's called, it's just not the same poker world any more. The odds are the odds are the odds, this I know. The problem for me with online holdem is the rate at which the odds are defied but it can be understood when realizing 1) the players see no buggars & 2) so many hands are being generated that we notice it more readily . Other disadvantages: 1) no audio-visual tells & 2) whether we are in fact playing the same person we see on screen as opposed to his wife, girlfriend, kid or cat for one or more hand which then messes with our thinking of his play.

Does this mean the game is not beatable? Of course not as observed from this forum. But for me it has meant changing my play and my games. Whereas I am very comfortable in a medium to high limit live holdem game, I struggle with any "limit" holdem game online so I play PL. I also play alot of omaha hi-lo. I've had to adjust my thinking too. I don't assume the raise means something specific, something I'd recognize in live play, it could mean something or nothing and I may not get a chance to get a good read on anyone so I must rely on the odds. My problems come into play when I play at something I am not comfortable with, so by trial and error I have found a comfort zone.

And maybe that's all it is with you too, finding the place in online poker where you fit in, where you feel comfortable playing whether it's a different limit, a different game, a different site.

Best wishes whatever you decide but don't let the 2 second bratty responses make you think you're a bad player if you've been a winning live game player.

And that folks is this slow & steady grinder woman's 2 cents!

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[eastwood]Bravo.[/eastwood]

Anyone dismayed over the "unbeatable" nature of online poker should save this post.

Re: Should I give up online poker?
 

no dont give it up.

If you give it up that means one less fish in the pond!