Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Let me start off by saying that I appreciate that poker is a skillful game. I also appreciate that there's a LOT more to the game than meets the eye.

I also want to say (before anyone flames me) that I am NOT a winning player and make NO claim to be able to beat the game)

Despite the above statements, I am intrigued to know what aspects make poker so difficult?

The number of decisions to make is limited.
The maths involved should be within the grasp of a good proportion of the population.


My offerings to the debate are:
"Conceptualisation": The majority of people just cannot visualise the concept of where the money comes from?

Discipline: The discipline required to play "properly". I offer that the majority of the population do not have the anywhere near the discipline.

Determination: Closely linkked with above.

Self Ego: IMHO, the biggest enemy of them all. Most people cannot control this.

The "irrational" nature of the mechanics: It seems Poker is the reverse of our natural instinct to learn by our mistakes. In the short term if you play badly you can still win. If you play brilliantly you can still lose. What does this tell your brain? What does this do to your ego?

There is more than enough info on how to play poker well, to keep eveyone busy for the rest of their lives. So why isn't everyone great at it?

I'm just looking to debate what is really at the "heart" of poker.

Regards,
Ian

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Conceptualisation": The majority of people just cannot visualise the concept of where the money comes from?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what you mean here, but it's not necessary for me to

You listed most of the stuff needed to become a good player, except maybe some form of intelligence/talent is requried. I don't want to just say 'intelligence', because some 'smart' people seem to be really dumb when it comes to poker, so there seems to be a specific form of intelligence needed, I dunno what type

But yeah, determination, ego, emotional control/discipline, competitiveness etc. are some important things

You seem to imply those other things you listed are easy to do/control? I don't think it's that easy

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

The counter-intuitive nature of the game (you touched on this) is one of the key reasons it's so hard to excel at poker. For example, the concept in stud that the 3rd best hand should raise a bet by the best hand in order to get the 2nd best hand to fold appears on the surface to defy common sense.

In chess, if your opponent makes a terrible move and you counter it with the perfect move, you will almost never lose. In poker, a similar situation can lead to a loss often enough in the short term that you can become irrational and lose the discipline necessary to play your best game.

Most people mistakenly view poker as a card game that has a betting aspect added. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Poker is a betting game to which cards have been added to set up the betting situations.

Poker is profitable because most people who play think they're playing a card game. The winning player knows that is a faulty assumption.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Good post, sums it up very well.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

I think that you missed interpersonal skills. The longer I play poker the more I understand that what Brunson and all those pros mean when they say that poker is a game of people. In fact, most of my decisions in the game don't have anything at all to do with my cards per se. They have more to do with my opponents. My though processs begins and ends with "Why would he do this action now?" In sum, I think that your statement that there are only a limited number of decisions to make assumes a very narrow understanding of the number of decisions that actually have to be made. Sure, at any given time you only have to decide whether to check, bet, raise, or fold. But the action that you take happens within the context of a myriad of other decisions, and those other decisions have to do with your conception of your opponent. Further, I think the elements of the game discussed in the other posts are secondary to your interpersonal skills. Discipline is important because you must fold when beat. But how do you know you are beat? Because you understand your opponents.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Most people mistakenly view poker as a card game that has a betting aspect added. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. Poker is a betting game to which cards have been added to set up the betting situations.

This brought the most incredible imagery to me: I have been dealt blank cards. Yes - blank cards. A true master poker player could possibly bet pre-flop, etc., and get all but the most supreme fish and donkeys to lay down. The ultimate bluff! The only way to have "nothing!"

Poker is profitable because most people who play think they're playing a card game. The winning player knows that is a faulty assumption.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

I forget who said it, maybe Doyle, that he could beat most people HU at NLHE without looking at his cards as long as the opponent didn't know he wasn't looking at his cards.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

tilt. a large number of losing players could be winning or break even if they didnt tilt.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

It is very interesting. As an intellectual challenge, poker is to bridge as checkers is to chess (ok maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the point). Yet there are still not all that many truly good poker players. Strange.

Must have a lot to do with the emotional aspects of gambling. Many highly intelligent people - including many excellent bridge players - just can't embrace the whole part about gambling. Emotional ups and downs associated with gambling causes brain to "short circuit" in some people.

But I do agree. When you get right down to the mathematics of it, and the tools you can employ to get accurate reads on your opponents, it really does make me scratch my head sometimes... Seems like it should be just too easy... So why isn't it??? Maybe it actually is... Most smart people who could be expert poker players just don't realize the opportunity is out there, or as I said before, gambling just doesn't interest them or suit their personality. You do have to be reasonably smart AND have a personality suited to successful gambling. Maybe it's this combination that makes it rarer. Because with online play, you really don't even need any "people skills" at all. You can employ readily availble software tools to get your reads on your opponents... To me, this is the mind blowing part. Used to be, poker playing required real talent in this area. Nowadays, all you need is pokertracker...

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

quote] The number of decisions to make is limited.
The maths involved should be within the grasp of a good proportion of the population.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these 2 statements are flawed in the first place and contribute partially to why poker is hard.

First of all I do agree that its within reach of a good proportion of the population, however, a good proportion of the population that plays poker doesnt care enough/are too lazy to bother with figuring Pot Odds.

Secondly, the amount of decisions (or non-decision) required in a single tournement for example, is quite high. For a multi-talbe tourney or a 6hour stretch at a ring game the amount of decisions you are required to make using and the abundance of stimuli that you are exposed to is quite staggering. I think this is why, as you said, the determination/disclipline are key factors to being a succesful player. Focus is also a key factor that allows you to be determined/discliplined when u play poker.

I saw a interview not too long ago with The Mouth and he was asked to talk about Ivey. He said that the reason Ivey is so much more succesful then him is not because of a trenmendous skill/experience/knowledge difference (and i beleive that this is true...for what its worth) . The staggering difference in both players bankroll is (according to the Mouth) due to the abnormal amount of focus Ivey can sustain at a poker table. He is always 100% focused on the game, which allows him to play discliplined poker for 14hours a day for 5 days strait if needed.

[ QUOTE ]
The "irrational" nature of the mechanics: It seems Poker is the reverse of our natural instinct to learn by our mistakes. In the short term if you play badly you can still win. If you play brilliantly you can still lose. What does this tell your brain? What does this do to your ego?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very intersting point. The way I was able to overcome that is that, after 1year playing poker quite regularly, I understood that poker is not a card game and that success at <poker> is not mesured in money, but in amount of correct decisions you can make. Most people are quite puzzled when I try to explain to them that to be good at poker you cannot care about how much money you win, as long as you make good decisions (the money will come afterwards).

Not tilting is also a big big big factor so being detached emotionally from the money aspect of poker, and its easy to do when you know that it doesnt matter if you win/lose a pot for 800$ on a 2outter on the river. You made a correct decision for investing 400$ in this situation so be happy about your 800$ pot loss, take some notes and keep playing the same way you are.

MOTA
(join my team @ pokerroom [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

great posts, really made me think.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

1. Emotional control - Very few people can avoid tilt forever

2. The ability to ride out variance/bad luck/bad beats and still play your A game (see above)

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

One thing I tell non-poker players is that poker seems like a very simple game because, as you said, the rules are simple and decisions are limited. But hidden within that seeming simplicity are layers upon layers of complexity.

All the items you've mentioned only scratch the surface. What's important to win at one level may not be very important at all at a higher level. As you move up and play with different opponents, the complexity of the game peels open gradually like layers of an onion.

So many people think they're great and know all there is about poker, only to look back two years later(when they've much more accomplished) and see that they knew squat at the time. Of course these are the ones who grow. There are many who think they know it all for 20 years, and they never improve.

It seems if you're not discovering how little you knew two years (6 months?) ago, then you are not growing and poker WILL pass you by.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Good post IDN and I like Hotpants's reply. The number 1 thing I say anyone needs is discipline it is also the toughest thing to aster. I am playing this game 26 years on and off and it can still go out the window upon occasion.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

[ QUOTE ]
The maths involved should be within the grasp of a good proportion of the population.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I'm amazed at the number of people who don't know even reasonably basic mathematics, like taking 15% out of a bill or multiplying 17 by 11. A lot of people have a perverse respect for innumeracy that they woundn't dream of having for illiteracy (which is only slightly more important). I think the math alone sinks a lot of people.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Playing poker is easy. Playing consistently winning poker is difficult. I took your post to be wondering what makes a player a winner and why are most players losers.

My 2 cents:

The vast majority of players don't try to be winners. They don't read the literature, they don't read these groups, they don't watch the game closely, they don't analyze their play, they don't think about what other players' actions mean and all of the rest. They do not develop the skills to become winners and they don't even know, nor do they care, what those skills may be.

I can't relate to their thought processes. I wouldn't put my money at risk without some idea of what I was doing.

I've gone so far as to recommend Dr. Schoonmaker's book to a few friends because they are 'hopeless' and I thought they would recognize themselves in the book and then take corrective action. None of them ever read it. That's why there are so few winners. Never mind bringing the total package to the game. They don't even know there is one.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Here's some of my thoughts on the subject, in addition to agreeing with most of the previous posts. This post is assuming the players are not addicted gamblers, and are generally rational in their thinking.

There are people who just play poker for fun, and there are people who want to get serious about it and make money. The people who play for fun are obviously rarely going to get very good at the game, and just play at whatever limits they feel comfortable with and will almost always lose long term.

For the people who are serious about getting good at poker, they have some big obstacles to overcome. You cannot just read a book and jump into a 5/10 game and start winning. You probably can't even just jump into a .5/1 game and start winning. It takes a lot of discipline and study and experience to become a winning player. I think for a lot of players who want to make money, starting at .5/1 just isn't worth it for them. It would take ages to build your skills enough to go from .5/1 to a level where the amount of money you can make is actually significant. Many players simply do not have that kind of time, due to their jobs, families etc. (as an aside, I believe this is a reason why there is an decreasing trend in the average age of good players).

They will get frustrated grinding through the micro limits, and take shots at games that they clearly aren't ready for and/or are underbankrolled for. Either that, or they may just decide to start off at 3/6 or 5/10 or higher, where even with decent basic knowledge of the game, you aren't likely to be a winner.

In summary, the lower limit games can easily be beaten. I am very confident that I could teach anyone without a major learning disability to beat Party .5/1 within two months if they were actually serious about it. The problem lies in discipline and frustration for those who are serious about getting good - the risk/reward payoff or opportunity cost just don't seem to warrant the time that needs to be invested.

Also, you would probably be very surprised with how many players 'think' they are winners, and chalk up losses to bad beats. I can tell this from talking to friends that play who are clearly losers in my mind, and from the countless times of watching the 50/5 player berate the 40/30 player for sucking out, and how terrible his play was.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would take ages to build your skills enough to go from .5/1 to a level where the amount of money you can make is actually significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only statement of yours I really disagree with. I started playing 0.5/1 in October 2004. It's still 2005 and I am now playing 10/20 and 15/30. I still have weaknesses in my game and I will likely stay at these levels for a while to improve my game, but I am now playing in games that, while hardly world class, are substantially more difficult than the games I initially started playing, and I am pretty confident I am at least a marginal winner.

Realistically, it is possible to move up to another limit properly bankrolled in about a month if you play full time and within several months if you play part time. Of course, you have to do the right things during that time and it is hard work.

It's not the time consumption that keeps people from moving up. It's their laziness in not making more of an effort to get better.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Despite the above statements, I am intrigued to know what aspects make poker so difficult?

The heart of the matter is, everyone in life knows what they ought to do to maximize their: happiness, wealth, health ect... but who really follows thru to a high degree?

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Poker is easy to learn and very difficult to master. There are many things to consider when playing.

Here we go...
The math: easy enough to learn but even at some points it gets difficult when its borderline and you have to compare pot odds with hand probabilities
Reading the opponent: taking notes, remembering his style
Keeping your head on straight: especially during losing sessions.
Focus: knowing how to play what and at which time.
Tells: discovering weaknesses in your opponents and signs that give away their hands.
Know thy self: so you know your limits.


Not too many catagories and I know I missed some but these fields are very deep. I started thinking that poker was easy and 2 year later I can't believe how much I know... I and know nothing. Poker is also about turning marginal situations into profitable ones. Difference between a break even player and a 2 BB per hour player? 2 BBs. That can be just one hand, one bluff, one call per hour. You are making tons of decisions based on all this.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is the only statement of yours I really disagree with. I started playing 0.5/1 in October 2004. It's still 2005 and I am now playing 10/20 and 15/30. I still have weaknesses in my game and I will likely stay at these levels for a while to improve my game, but I am now playing in games that, while hardly world class, are substantially more difficult than the games I initially started playing, and I am pretty confident I am at least a marginal winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course their are anomalies for people that are just very gifted at learning this game, and those that run very hot. From the sounds of it, you probably have benefitted from both of those factors. I have played roughly 6 months, and have reached 5/10 and take shots at 10/20 - however, I look at some of the posters that I was playing .5/1 with when I started, and they are playing 1/2 now, or getting beat at 2/4. I still believe for the average person, even if they are serious about learning, it takes quite a lot of time and patience to be able to beat a game where the money is significant.

Imperfect Information, dude. Imperfect Information.
 

Haven't read all the other posts yet. But the answer is imperfect information.

The SOB check raises you. Is he trying to knock you out and protect his mediocre hand, or trying to get more money in the pot with his monster?

You have QQ and an ace falls on the flop. He bets. Does he have it? Or is it a bluff? How do you know.

Unlike chess, and somewhat more like financial trading, you don't have all the facts. It is a guessing game in many situations. And like financial trading, best you can do is estimate.

That, I believe is the bottom line on the subject.

How to beat progressively higher limits?
 

OK, I just finished reading all the other posts.

Some intersting points made.

The one I'm really interested in is the sub-debate about what it takes to get to a level of significant income, and how long.

My story is that I used to play stud in Vegas at the 5/10 to 10/20 level.

Like another poster stated somewhere, "I bought SSHE, deposited xxxx dollars and lost more than I care to admit".

I had started playing at around those levels believing it was no big deal.

Like that other poster I realized I just screwed up. Like him I busted myself down to the 0.02/0.04 level... with just $2.63 left in that account.

I have worked since worked that back up to a high water mark of $200, jumping levels as bankroll permitted. I did not have a losing day until last night. Got kicked back to $130 seemed like I've been fighting over those same few $20 bills for 2 weeks now.

This has been occuring at the 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1.00 level.
(Ok, I admit it. Been taking shots at 0.50/1.00 under bankrolled...but not losing there, oddly. Just not winning much either.)

So apparently the Peter Principle has set in and I've hit some sort of plateau. (Though I do see that the games are tighter once there's a rake too.)

Sometimes I theorize that once the regular players get a line on me at a level... or more likely thier Poker Tracker... Profits dry up.

That's why I was taking shots. Seems my profits are high in the early days at any given limit, then I get nailed.

So this brings up some questions.

1) How to bust plateaus
2) What do I have to do to beat these limits and the next ones up. (I'm wanting to rapidly replace my regular work with this.)
3) At the levels where it starts to tighten up (0.50/1.00 at least on Stars) should I switch from SSHE to HPFAP at these limits. Granted the book was originally for 10/20 and above. But that was based on the game difficulty if I recall correctly, right?

Anyway, any thoughts appreciated.

Re: How to beat progressively higher limits?
 

12ax:

It's good to hear you are working your way back up. Stay focused and be patient. To get over those plateaus as you describe them, you need two things:
(1) a big enough hand sample for skill to show -- even a good player can run bad for several tens of thousands of hands;
(2) continuing improvement in your game -- to me, the most important part of beating poker is understanding the mistakes your opponents are making and figuring out how to best exploit them.

Do *not* focus on whether others are pegging you right -- at least not at these limits. Chances are that they aren't, and even if they do know how you play, they likely won't adjust optimally anyway. Focus on observing their play carefully, and making the optimal adjustments against them. You could have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a board that is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], with the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hitting the turn. Let's say you raised preflop and had several callers. You bet the flop and had just one caller. You bet the turn and he raises you.

Should you raise, call, or fold? The answer is that it depends. Against some maniacal opponents, you should raise him back, as you likely have the best hand. Against some more reasonable but still aggressive players, you are likely beaten but your odds for improving plus the possibility you are best (maybe he is aggressive enough he would raise K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]) make calling down best. Against some very passive opponents, the chances your opponent has a straight or set may be so high that you should just fold here.

So keep studying, and post your hands on the strategy forums. It looks like the microlimit forum is the place for you right now; many people (like myself) have started there and eventually moved up to small stakes and sometimes further.

Lastly, I should add a word of caution. You aren't anywhere near the point of being able to make a living off of Hold 'Em. You need a large bankroll and several months of expenses covered -- in addition to the skill needed to beat the higher limit games -- in order to be successfully professional. Ed Miller has written several great articles on that topic in the forum magazine, and I believe the articles are available on a webpage that he started. (Search the archives and you'll hopefully come across the link.)

Best wishes,
Mike

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

I have tried to write a post back I cannot in a small time frame. In summation, it's a game that must be learned but then it's a business. You must master the game, then have money management skills, emotional stability, you have to be mentally tough, and competitive and possibly above all have a burning desire to get better and better and better. You have to walk with arrogance while understanding you don't know nearly enough yet. And if you have any personal flaws like drinking, drugging or pit gambling or sports betting you better cut that crap out, or you may watch all you hard work spiral out of control......it's tough man....but do-able!

Re: How to beat progressively higher limits?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller has written several great articles on that topic in the forum magazine, and I believe the articles are available on a webpage that he started. (Search the archives and you'll hopefully come across the link.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Link

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the people who are serious about getting good at poker, they have some big obstacles to overcome. You cannot just read a book and jump into a 5/10 game and start winning. You probably can't even just jump into a .5/1 game and start winning. It takes a lot of discipline and study and experience to become a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny. I read a book and jumped into a $2-$4 game and started winning.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

Not only do most people not put the effort into becoming money-winning players, they simply don't want to do so.

Likewise, I enjoy playing Scrabble, but I have absolutely no interest in putting the effort needed to become a successful tournament Scrabble player. Doing so would destroy what it is that I enjoy about the game.

Bridge writer Victor Mollo wrote a wonderful book called You Need Never Lose at Bridge. The introduction was all about how how his various characters with whom he populated his chapters on play were each and every one of them winners ... because whether or not they won any particular rubber, they each and every one of them got what they were really playing to get. Many of the so-called fish from whom we money-winners take the money in poker are also winners, because they are getting satisfaction out of the game that maybe some of us money-winners don't get any more, and that this satisfaction, not the money, is why they play.

All this self-congratulation about how hard it is to become a winning poker player is nonsense. How many of you have tried to get good at, say, chess? Jeebus, compared to the work you have to do to become a decent chess player, getting good at poker is child's play.

I consider myself a mediocre poker player, not a good one. I work on my game to improve, and I do improve, but in the grand scheme of things I'm a spear-carrier compared to the stars like Chip Reese and Doyle Brunson.

I've been a winning poker player for almost a decade now. That part was easy.

Re: Poker: What\'s so difficult about it???
 

rake.

Re: How to beat progressively higher limits?
 

Hi Mike,
Oh yeah, I *know* I'm nowhere near being able to make a living at it. LOL! No question about that.

I do have a living expense bankroll, and can bankroll the game. However, it would have to work soon if I were doing if full time. After living bankrolls burn fairly quick these days. I'm just forcing myself to win my way up to be sure I'm really winning. Call it an act of self discipline (and maybe defiance, LOL!).

Given that multi-tabling seems to be the rule these days, I don't know how anyone ever gets the kind of reads you are talking about against 40, 50 or 80 opponents at a time.

FWIW, I came back last night with a nice $30 win at 0.25/0.50. So guess I gotta keep tryin'. That bad day I mentioned I played about 5500 hands trying to get back to even, finally had to stop after 20 hours. LOL!

So here's a strategy question for you... "The Dreaded Ace" problem.

You have large PP's say KK... and Ace drops. Get out? Seems like in these smaller games folks play literally any Ace.

Anyway, just wondering what everyone's thought on the default play in that situation is?

I've seen it go either way naturally. But I'd swear there's always an Ace in the field opponents. Seems like a long term losing play to even try to fight it?