Hellmuth and Math
 

A math-type player would never be able to make that AK laydown against AA on that kind of board. The math type would just say, "Okay, I have AK and there's another Ace on the board and this will lower the chances that he has AA by so and so %, therefore, I call". The math type would have been broke at that point.

To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math. He could have swept Jesus (a math guy) in the heads up championship. But Jesus got lucky that one time. Hellmuth still totally outplayed him.

Before folding his AK in the WSOP 2005 televised event, Hellmuth asked the guy a question like, "Do you remember my name?" And he folded based on that guy's response to this. Poker genius displayed on a grand scale.

Hellmuth may not be the best all around player but he is the best nolimit hold'em player.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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A math-type player would never be able to make that AK laydown against AA on that kind of board. The math type would just say, "Okay, I have AK and there's another Ace on the board and this will lower the chances that he has AA by so and so %, therefore, I call". The math type would have been broke at that point.

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phil thought he had QQ. at least, thats what he asked him. ur point is moot.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

As I posted in the OTHER thread about this very hand....


The tells that the guy gave off were freaking OBVIOUS (and painful to watch actually).


The board was AQTT when the guy (who struck me as the kind of guy who is normally a passive player) bet $10k.

Phil is already behind AQ, KJ and any T (as well as QQ and AA).

There aren't a whole lot of hands that Phil beats that the guy would make such a large bet with (another AK maybe?? AJ or KK?? not likely).


Decent laydown?? Yes.
Great laydown?? No.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math.

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So much for you David Sklansky! A "mere" Math Guy ...yuck, phooey! That was quite a laydown though....I bet more people take shots at Helmuth in the future...Hmmm...already happened...seems I recall someone pushing in with K,Js against him. I wonder if he brought it on himself with all of his great laydowns.

Vince

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

If by "math-type player" you mean "someone who has no ability to read people or read hands and has no understanding of what anybody else at the table is doing" then yes, you are correct. Someone who can't read people or hands can't fold there. But someone who can looks at that old guy who hasn't played a hand in 15 orbits suddenly reraises you, you have to consider his possible hands.

In fact, the fact that he waits 15 orbits to play a hand should indicate to a "math guy" who pays attention that he's only playing ultra-premium hands, reraising at the most with AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ...and a math-type guy would say, I split with 1 of those, lose to 3 of them, and beat 1 of them, so I should fold.

And the flop was A44, turn Q, no tens on board as mentioned previously.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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To be a poker genius like Hellmuth you have to go above just mere math. He could have swept Jesus (a math guy) in the heads up championship. But Jesus got lucky that one time. Hellmuth still totally outplayed him.

Before folding his AK in the WSOP 2005 televised event, Hellmuth asked the guy a question like, "Do you remember my name?" And he folded based on that guy's response to this. Poker genius displayed on a grand scale.

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These concepts you bring up are mind blowing. I would be interested in any books you may write on this revolutionary topic of "reading" people. Have you contacted Mason yet?

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

As another poster said, both here and I think in the MTT forum (right?) this was a good laydown, not a phenomenal laydown.

The guy was textbook Caro "fish acting weak when he has the nuts", it's kinda scary taht the OP thought it was so good... wanna come to my home game?

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

I remember Howard Lederer mentioned in either a magazine or a website that he had made a mistake talking with Hellmuth during a hand in a major tournament. Hellmuth made a great read based on how Lederer responded to the question and it cost Howard lots of $$$$$. If someone has a link to this it would be appreciated.

Hellmuth is well known for being excellent at reading people's voices. Maybe that is why he talks a lot. He spots tells in how people talk. Even a world class pro like Lederer was vulnerable. In the article I mentioned, Lederer promised never to talk with Phil again while being in a hand with him.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

A44 not ATT.

My bad.

That does make the lay-down a LITTLE bit better (since any 4 is less likely than any T...and KJ for the straight is not an issue either).

Still not a 'phenomenal' laydown though.

It IS the type of hand that would send many bad players broke though.
But good players are supposed to be able to make plays like that.
And bad players make bad plays...that's why they're bad players.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

He had the KJ dude dominated with his AK. He lost because of bad luck. Phil is a genius at putting his money in with the best of it during key times. He is a psychology genius when it comes to reading and manipulating other players. But he really needs help with his own psychology. Perhaps his psychiatrist wife should help.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

That's probably the hand where Hellmuth laid down top two against Howard's set. I believe it's in his second book, I've seen it on the web somewhere, as well.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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He had the KJ dude dominated with his AK.

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Right "dude" Helmuth had the AK. I believe that I said, (with a bit of humor but true nonetheless) I wonder if more people will take a shot at him. When a poker player makes what he calls "grest" laydowns, then advertises them he exposes himself at being shot at by good and not so good poker players with mediocre hands. I bet that "GENIUS" Helmuth finds that happeneing more and more often. I believe that it is one of the reasons that not so GENIUS Eric Seidel does not want to show his hole cards on tv or anywhere else. But what does he know.

Vince

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

If the guy with AA bets the flop, Hellmuth goes broke. I'm sure he was much more concerned about QQ and AQ than the two case aces. Of course, the decision wasn't made any harder by the amateur's overbet and easy demeanor.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

Or he realized the only hand hes ahead of is KK. Behind AQ, behind AA, behind QQ... Hmm.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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The board was AQTT when the guy (who struck me as the kind of guy who is normally a passive player) bet $10k.

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Actually, it was 44AQ....

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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Or he realized the only hand hes ahead of is KK. Behind AQ, behind AA, behind QQ... Hmm.

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If the amateur had half-bet the pot on both the turn and the river and Phil had folded, I would have been slightly impressed.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

What's the difference? Phil would stil get him talking and get a read if Chris is right.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

you dont even have to talk, he can see into your soul

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

If that Q doesn't hit the turn Hellmuth doubles that guy up. He made a good fold, but he tought the guy had QQ. If the turn is a 7 I doubt he mucks it.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

wow, u guys r giving hellmuth wayyy too much credits on this one.

i saw that on the tv, i was actaully laughing cause it was ridiculous how hellmuth was like "HOW MANY PEOPLE GET AWAY FROM THIS?" wow i m saying more than half of the people on this board can and i dont even think the turn matters.

dood, a passive old man reraised you preflop and checked on a A44 board, what do you think he has??? if he had KK he would ve bet and tried to bluff his way out.

i thought the perfect play there shoudl ve been put like 3/4 of the pot, then i doubt hellmuth will muck it, probably reraise and then fold to an all in or something.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

Yeah, Hellmuth played brilliantly against, Todo, made some great laydowns and won the tournament....

Oh no, he folded the best hand a bunch of times, got short stacked and busted out with a weak hand, just like he always does.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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Oh no, he folded the best hand a bunch of times, got short stacked and busted out with a weak hand, just like he always does.

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As I recall, on the hand that he busted out, he had top pair after the flop and Leonidas pushed all-in with second pair. He was a huge favorite, but got outdrawn.

Does Phil make too many laydowns? Perhaps, but I am sure it sets people up to push all-in with mediocre hands...like Leonidas did, and the guy with KJ did.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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Hellmuth may not be the best all around player but he is the best nolimit hold'em player.

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Should I start checking every hand in the dark everytime?

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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A math-type player would never be able to make that AK laydown against AA on that kind of board. The math type would just say, "Okay, I have AK and there's another Ace on the board and this will lower the chances that he has AA by so and so %, therefore, I call". The math type would have been broke at that point.


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Umm, people that apply math well in poker also understand Bayes theorem. They don't think as simply as you outlined above. So despite all the obvious tell's the old guy was giving off a "math" player could have made a good decision on this hand.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

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As I posted in the OTHER thread about this very hand....


The tells that the guy gave off were freaking OBVIOUS (and painful to watch actually).


The board was AQTT when the guy (who struck me as the kind of guy who is normally a passive player) bet $10k.

Phil is already behind AQ, KJ and any T (as well as QQ and AA).

There aren't a whole lot of hands that Phil beats that the guy would make such a large bet with (another AK maybe?? AJ or KK?? not likely).


Decent laydown?? Yes.
Great laydown?? No.

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I could lay it down, and im not remotely good - I certainly wouldnt need a read so concrete that the other guy basicly showed me his hand, thats for sure.

Re: Hellmuth and Math
 

I don't remember if it was an all-in situation (just deleted it from TiVo) but earlier, during the period when he wouldn't shut up about how he was steaming, Phil was dominated (KT vs JT?) and caught his 3-outer. He didn't say a word about sucking out, donkey play, can't spell poker... nada.

And his wife is a Psychiatrist? Either she's the world's worst head shrinker, or he is truly beyond help. The guy is socially maladjusted, and she seems to enable him.