LAG hand I guess
 

5/10 6-handed. 28/12 (on the loose side of TAG, but probably a winning player) UTG limps with 1030 behind, one fold, I make it 50 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 1040 behind in CO, folded to UTG who calls. I think this is pretty early in the session, but I have some hands on UTG, so he may know a bit about my playing style (tight and very aggressive).

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with 115 in the pot.

UTG checks, I bet 85, he calls.

Turn K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with 285 in the pot.

UTG checks, I bet 180, he minraises to 360, I push for a little over 500 more.

I figure he would have raised AK, KK, QQ UTG for sure, so I'm only afraid of 22 and KQ, both of which may be a raise UTG as well. Limp-calling with a weak K seems a bit out of place for this guy, and he may fold a weak K anyway.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

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and he may fold a weak K anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]no.

Furthermore, this is either you've decided your hand is good and go for the push or you should fold. This is not a bluffing hand. I don't mind checking turn.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

I agree with capt. Why are you betting this turn? That bet seems like a mistake.

He is drawing to very few outs or you are drawing dead.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

What kind of preflop raiser pushes without AK or QQ in that spot? Only a dumb one, and I don't have a reputation of being dumb yet (I usually don't get caught with my dumb moves). A good player is going to find it pretty hard to call.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

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What kind of preflop raiser pushes without AK or QQ in that spot? Only a dumb one, and I don't have a reputation of being dumb yet (I usually don't get caught with my dumb moves). A good player is going to find it pretty hard to call.

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I agree, but what do you put him on though? Would this opp. lay down KJ/T? This seems like an expensive way to find out if you are beat. If he is making a move because he doesn't think you have a K, reraising is only going to get him to fold, but you want him to keep betting cause your AQ is certainly good. If he has a lock, you just lost a lot more money than you should have. This move only works if he has a King and will lay it down, a large part of the time he has many other hands, making this move probably less optimal than others given his range of hands. Do you disagree?

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

its better to bluff when you need to bluff to win. try to use the value that your hand has when it has value, and your hand here certainly does, but not when you play it like you did.

here, you have a decent, not tremendously vulnerable hand in position in a heads up pot and you played it in such a way as to almost guarentee that his worse hands, the ones you want to play against, will fold. you have also minimized the probability of him bluffing at the pot.

aggression is all well and good but pot control and inducing bluffs are good things too.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

I see what you're saying. Do you prefer checking through the turn and getting one bet in on the river?

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

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[ QUOTE ]

What kind of preflop raiser pushes without AK or QQ in that spot? Only a dumb one, and I don't have a reputation of being dumb yet (I usually don't get caught with my dumb moves). A good player is going to find it pretty hard to call.

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I agree, but what do you put him on though? Would this opp. lay down KJ/T? This seems like an expensive way to find out if you are beat. If he is making a move because he doesn't think you have a K, reraising is only going to get him to fold, but you want him to keep betting cause your AQ is certainly good. If he has a lock, you just lost a lot more money than you should have. This move only works if he has a King and will lay it down, a large part of the time he has many other hands, making this move probably less optimal than others given his range of hands. Do you disagree?

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I agree with AZK and cwl.

Your turn bet would be "fine" if you were holding a LAG raising hand like T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], for no pair no draw.

As it is, you have showdown value, so plan to show it down.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

Check turn, only JT you're giving real outs to, but pot control and inducing bluff is far more valueable

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

Im gonna be pretty surprised if our Hero posts the results and villain doesnt have at least 3 kings. You didnt mention how aggressive the guy is, but do you guys see many turn check-minraises that are bluffs? TJ is the only semi-bluffing hand out there, which seems unlikely anyway, but you'd think if he wanted to represent a king and get Hero to fold, he'd put in a real raise.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

[ QUOTE ]
its better to bluff when you need to bluff to win. try to use the value that your hand has when it has value, and your hand here certainly does, but not when you play it like you did.

here, you have a decent, not tremendously vulnerable hand in position in a heads up pot and you played it in such a way as to almost guarentee that his worse hands, the ones you want to play against, will fold. you have also minimized the probability of him bluffing at the pot.

aggression is all well and good but pot control and inducing bluffs are good things too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like this post. Thanks.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

Results?

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

Poor play

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

On checking the turn....

Lets say villain is almost always going to lead the river if you check this turn. How much are willing to call against this kind of opponent (borderline TAG as you said). Pot at 285.

A non Ace river and villian leads for 175. Your action? Baring no read I vote fold.

Why call/fold? This is the bulk of the question as these actions will be the most common, but a small % of the time...
Anyone push? Baring no read this seems terrible, but I'd be happy to be enlightened.

edit - making push an acceptable option what kind of hand would you put villain on?. I'm also an idiot and messed up pot size, fixed now.

Results
 

He typed KJ and folded.

Re: Results
 

For those of you advocating pot control, I was probably planning to bet the turn and check through the river. It makes decisions easier than the check through turn, put one bet in on the river line, but I realize that I'll have to lay down a winning hand more often with this line. When he checkminraised me, I felt I could represent AK strongly and get him to fold whatever he was holding. If I call the checkraise, I have no bluff equity on the river and I get stacked or just end up folding anyway. If I decide to call the river after calling the checkminraise, I'm putting in almost as much money as with my line, but I'm calling it away instead of betting. I don't have a problem with getting my stack in on a marginal hand as long as I'm the one betting, but I'm not a fan of calling off 1000 bucks with second pair. Folding to the turn checkraise is kind of lame, and I really hate folding to minraises. Maybe it's better though.

Re: Results
 

u trust he was telling truth? i think any K calls, maybe i am donkey in a field of cows...or is it horses

Re: Results
 

He didn't have a King and this was really badly played.

Re: Results
 

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Folding to the turn checkraise is kind of lame, and I really hate folding to minraises. Maybe it's better though.

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I guess you had better experience with turn check minraises than me. So far my count is something like 389 near lock hand and 1 bluff.

Re: Results
 

Maybe the stacks are too shallow to pull this move. If we both had 1500 behind, calling with KJ against a TAG is definitely not a no-brainer.

Once he checkminraises, my hand loses all value and may as well be T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Some sort of K is his most likely holding, and I have to decide whether I think I can push him off a weak K or should just fold.

Re: Results
 

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Maybe the stacks are too shallow to pull this move. If we both had 1500 behind, calling with KJ against a TAG is definitely not a no-brainer.

Once he checkminraises, my hand loses all value and may as well be T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Some sort of K is his most likely holding, and I have to decide whether I think I can push him off a weak K or should just fold.

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So then you basically acknowledge that his check-minraise can't be a bluff? Im glad things worked out for you and all, but in general I don't think pushing in order to move your opponent off trips is going to work nearly as often as you're gonna get stacked. If you knew this specific player THAT well, go you.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

If I knew he had a King I would NEVER EVER EVER EVER try to bluff in a million years, except without one hell of a read. I really doubt he folded KJ, I think AJ is more likely imo. If I had KJ, I would never fold this in a million years (with those chip counts). From villians perspective, I would just put other person on AA or AQ or even KT- and decide that he wasn't too worried about losing just a few more chips and would just pay off .

I think if villain actually folded KJ, you are the luckiest player in the world.

Re: LAG hand I guess
 

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On checking the turn....

Lets say villain is almost always going to lead the river if you check this turn. How much are willing to call against this kind of opponent (borderline TAG as you said). Pot at 285.

A non Ace river and villian leads for 175. Your action? Baring no read I vote fold.

Why call/fold? This is the bulk of the question as these actions will be the most common, but a small % of the time...
Anyone push? Baring no read this seems terrible, but I'd be happy to be enlightened.

edit - making push an acceptable option what kind of hand would you put villain on?. I'm also an idiot and messed up pot size, fixed now.

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On river decision, by checking turn, you pretty much are obligated to call ANY bets on a blank river (although if a 9 hits, you should feel less likely to call), because he could be value betting a worse queen or a missed straight draw (JT or AJ or AT).