QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Villain is completely unknown to me. I absolutely hated the way I played this hand. I think my preflop raise was too small first of all. Anything else I should have done differently? Maybe bet the turn?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($725.70)
SB ($512.07)
Hero ($517)
UTG ($1101.60)
MP ($1308)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $12</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $29</font>, UTG calls $23.

Flop: ($73) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $55</font>, UTG calls $55.

Turn: ($183) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $125</font>, Hero calls $125.

River: ($433) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $350</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $783

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

yes, your preflop re-raise was too small. It should have been to at least $40.

flop is ok, turn check is ok, but if you check the turn it is so you can check-raise. given the way you got to the turn, a check-raise is my favourite option followed by lead.

If he checks behind, a check-call on river is pretty standard (unless it's a Q of course)

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you check the turn it is so you can check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Why would you check raise this turn?

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check raise this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gives you really no information about villains hand by doing this...I hate this line, either check/call or lead and fold to a big raise or push.

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

I think check-raise turn is far better than check-call turn.

Look at it this way, if he's on one pair or a draw I think a check-raise is far superior. The advantage to check-calling I see is catching a river bluff, and I don't think people are going to bluff you much after you called the turn OOP, that shows some strength.

Suppose you check turn, he bets, and you know he's got AT. What would you do?

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think check-raise turn is far better than check-call turn.

Look at it this way, if he's on one pair or a draw I think a check-raise is far superior. The advantage to check-calling I see is catching a river bluff, and I don't think people are going to bluff you much after you called the turn OOP, that shows some strength.

Suppose you check turn, he bets, and you know he's got AT. What would you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

C/R the turn here is a great way to win the least when you are ahead and lose the max when you are behind. Villain will just laydown worse hands and stack you with better hands. Furthermore, you have no idea how strong he is so you are basically betting your stack in the dark (meaning with no information about villain's range)

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

I frequently get called by worse hands when I check-raise here

And if he folds a draw, the check-raise is still correct.

When you check-call turn, what's your river plan? I think you are putting yourself into more of a reverse implied odds situation by check-calling turn

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I frequently get called by worse hands when I check-raise here

And if he folds a draw, the check-raise is still correct.

When you check-call turn, what's your river plan? I think you are putting yourself into more of a reverse implied odds situation by check-calling turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Frequently getting called by worse hands here is good. I hope thist trend continues for you. I myself get stacked by 2pair/sets when I do this. Every now and then a strong 10 or a draw calls me, but its still -EV IMO.

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Yea...to be honest checkraising the turn was the last thing on my mind. I dont see how this can be a good play. I checked the turn to try and keep the pot small. Hopefully if he's on a draw, he'll just check to the river and I can make a decision there, based upon whether or not a scare card came out. I assume when villain is firing on the turn and the river, he either has absolutely nothing or a monster. Check raising loses me the most when he has a monster and wins me the least when he's got nothing since there's no chance of him bluffing a worst hand on the river...am I right in this line of thought?

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Scubba, it is my intention to get with a Math professor and find out what the chances of players at a 9 person table one holding QQ and another holding KK or AA, or one holding KK the other AA, I think it's is not very good, probably .08% that's the calculation I came up with based off of my own math, but I'm not sure if my formula was set right

I think its likely, in fact probable based on the large river bet, your Villian was holding K,10, it's hard to say, but if you're asking for my opinion, I don't mind your play at all, excepts for the check on the turn, it would have given a drawing hand a chance to get there and in this case they did on the Kc which came on the river (given the $125 bet on the turn, I doubt he was on a drawing hand) Also at a 5 person table, what do you think the chances that your Queens were not good on the turn? I don't think it's very likely he had AA or KK, make a value bet on the turn

You correctly folded on the river, in my opinion

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Scubba, no I don't think you are correct in this line of thinking. And for someone who just correctly adviced dregal not to make a bet on the river when it could only cost him money, I don't understand where your line of thinking is coming from?

You want to check on the turn to keep the pot small and keep a drawing hand in the pot??? You'll make a decision at the river???? No, No, NO

With QQ you have the best hand on the turn in all likelihood, you have to bet that and make a nice bet (pot or 2/3 pot) Chase out the drawing hands, what if he had been on a club draw, would you have been happy to see the club on the river, what decision would you have made than?

On the turn the pot was already big enough to just take it down right than, make a respectable bet (I'd bet the pot if it were me) Take it down and move on to the next hand

P.S. YOU NEVER WANT TO KEEP THE POT SMALL WITH POCKET QUEENS!

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Check raising on the turn with a flush draw out there

IS VERY, VERY, VERY BAD

You will get your @ss handed to you when they hit there flush and you will not win any money on a river bet when they missed

if you check to me on the turn when I have a drawing hand, I'm only going to check to see the river for FREE I will never bet to you so you can raise me, I will steal your check-raise from you, than as I said, you will pay dearly when I hit my flush and win nothing more from me, when I missed.

BAD, BAD, BAD IDEA

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

AGAIN, NEVER CHECK TO A DRAWING HAND ON THE TURN, WHY DO IT?

THEY WILL ONLY CHECK ALSO AND SEE THE RIVER FOR FREE, THIS IS VERY BAD

Re: QQ out of position on a rag flop
 

Looks to me like he semibluffed a flush draw on the turn when you failed to bet your hand and got there on the river with some random connector. You're reraise preflop looks a lot like an overpair, maybe that's just me, but I can't see the villain not raising the flop if he has QQ beat. Checkraise all in on the turn