A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob & become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Im sure this is true, but running any business is hard. I think you have to have the same dedication to poker that you would have to starting/running any business. Are there any posters here that ran a more conventional business before switching to play poker full time? I'd like to know what their thoughts are of the differences between the two.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

agree 235,000%

i am very disturbed at the 'i'm dropping out cuz i had a badass month!!' trend

college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

great article by Ed Miller on the topic


edit: fox i did, i ran a company for about a year before 'going pro'...i like playing about a million times better overall, its a whole lot less like having a job and a whole lot more like personal freedom. even if you 'own' your business you still can't do whatever you please, you can't just not show up etc. with poker you can take a month off if you aren't feeling it, or do your job from another country or whatever. there may be companies that allow these perks but mine was not one of them.

aside from perks and drawbacks...i think the skill sets are very very similar...you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others (many times from people close to you). you also need money management, time managament, discipline, honesty with yourself and a bit on insanity to make either of them work IMO.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Ed Millers articles drive me insane for some reason. Quotes like the following are pretty insulting:

"I think people are dropping out of college because they see poker as their “way out.” Poker isn’t a way out of anything. It’s a game, and it can provide some nice extra cash. Some really nice cash if you are good. But eventually you are going to have to (or at least want to) live like a normal person again. Normal people finish college."


Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Yah I am a college student and I make enough to make poker better than working at a fast food joint, however that does limit my bankroll. Once I get my engineering (true love)degree, I'll be making enough money that poker will become a nice recreational activity that happens to make me money.

I don't ever plan on going "pro", I just don't think that life would hold enough meaning for me (not to try to take anything away from those who are professional poker players), but I've heard in interviews about how many players feel unaccomplished since they have spent their lives playing cards. Of course, this is true of many people throughout all walks of life. I just remember hearing John Juanda say that he wanted to go back to college and graduate and get a degree in medicine to become a doctor.

But yah, playing poker is hard, and taking big swings when you have bills can crush your soul. This is why it is hard to play your A+ game for like 40 hours a week consistently over the long term.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generalizations don't need to apply to everybody to be good generalizations. I think it is almost certainly true that more people think they can go pro and hack it than actually can, and they better have a backup option. Considering all kinds of other factors rather than just raw ability - getting bored with it in 2-3 years of grinding, the dubious legality of internet gambling, etc. - I think it's definitely wise to be thinking about what one will do if it doesn't work out.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that the average age of what you consider the "younger" posters here is ~15 years older than the average poster here....

Course, you DO have seniority on Methuselah, so who am I to quibble.

Daliman- 15 years older than the average poster here himself.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

that is a bit insulting...

however quotes like this one are pretty dead on IMO:

[ QUOTE ]
College provides general knowledge, preparation for jobs, and, for better or worse, social status. If you knew you would play poker forever, maybe going to college wouldn’t matter so much. But you don’t know that, and furthermore, you probably won’t play poker forever. Most of you won’t be playing poker fulltime even five years from now.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
agree 235,000%

i am very disturbed at the 'i'm dropping out cuz i had a badass month!!' trend

college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

great article by Ed Miller on the topic


edit: fox i did, i ran a company for about a year before 'going pro'...i like playing about a million times better overall, its a whole lot less like having a job and a whole lot more like personal freedom. even if you 'own' your business you still can't do whatever you please, you can't just not show up etc. with poker you can take a month off if you aren't feeling it, or do your job from another country or whatever. there may be companies that allow these perks but mine was not one of them.

aside from perks and drawbacks...i think the skill sets are very very similar...you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others (many times from people close to you). you also need money management, time managament, discipline, honesty with yourself and a bit on insanity to make either of them work IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to Believe that you were once the "hated" GauchoFish [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]...Good Post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that the average age of what you consider the "younger" posters here is ~15 years older than the average poster here....

Course, you DO have seniority on Methuselah, so who am I to quibble.

Daliman- 15 years older than the average poster here himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're an IDIOT [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]Book it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]You have only one redeeming grace = You like the same drink I do [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
College provides general knowledge,

[/ QUOTE ]
Certainly not the only way to accumlate general knowledge.
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preparation for jobs,

[/ QUOTE ]
In some cases, sure. But, probably not as effectively as vocational training of some sort, or an apprenticeship.

I think a lot of people confuse college with direction and purpose. With direction and purpose college may be quite beneficial. But, with direction and purpose a non-college route might serve you just as well.

Without direction and purpose, neither college nor non-college paths are likely to serve you too well.

And, I am quite convinced that college is not the place to find direction and purpose.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

[/ QUOTE ] This is a broad generalization clearly and its very likely to apply better to the population in general than people who would/could be successful as Poker Professionals.

In general, I think Ed should limit his writings to things he knows well and stay away from general life advice. And as somebody who occasionally works in higher education the notion that people who were good or better students and leave to pursue other oppurunities never return to get their degree is much less true now that it was ten to fifteen years ago. And it was *never* all that true. Bein able to make six figures at a job that stimulates you intellectually and allows you to make your own hours is a very good opurtunity especially at a young age. Further I think its a huge waste to drift around a college campus rudderless with no bettter idea of why you are there than because that is what is expected of you. Its flat out stupid.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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Bein able to make six figures at a job that stimulates you intellectually and allows you to make your own hours is a very good opurtunity especially at a young age.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is going to be a very small subset of people that skipperbob is addressing. I think he's more interested in reaching the audience that only thinks they can do this.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

University has been -EV for me. Don't get me started on Student Loans. Wish I had just done self-study.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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Further I think its a huge waste to drift around a college campus rudderless with no bettter idea of why you are there than because that is what is expected of you. Its flat out stupid.

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I agree. Of course, that doesn't mean that drifting rudderless in other places is necessarily better. For the rudderless, it can be hard to find +EV environments.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Where's the Rudder?...Is it at the pointy-end of the boat or the at the assend?...The Chief-of-the-Boat used to hate it when I asked that question...But then again, only two kinds of people whissle in the Navy; Chiefs & Queers

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ed Millers articles drive me insane for some reason. Quotes like the following are pretty insulting:

"I think people are dropping out of college because they see poker as their “way out.” Poker isn’t a way out of anything. It’s a game, and it can provide some nice extra cash. Some really nice cash if you are good. But eventually you are going to have to (or at least want to) live like a normal person again. Normal people finish college."


Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that quote is disgusting. I don't want to be normal. I don't strive to be normal. I don't want to work a 9-5. I don't want to make $50,000 a year. Everybody around here seems to think that trying to play poker is the "easy" way out. I think its the hard way, but could lead to being much more lucrative, while also allowing one to be free. Everybody has to look at their own situation and see what's best for them. If these two options are my choices:

1. Force myself to graduate college while hating every minute of it so I can get a square job that I also hate. Going this route has safety, you know you're never going to go bankrupt if you have any kind of money management skills, but how much are you going to enjoy life?

2. Take a shot at going pro in something that you absolutely love. Maybe you'll be broke in two months.

Which is the bigger mistake? I think not taking a shot is by far a bigger mistake.

I'm going to qualify this by saying that I am not any where near believing I have the skill set to play professionally yet, but I hope I have the guts to take a stab whenever I do develop the skills.

BTW, I'm 23, and never went to college.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

FWIW, I agreed completely with the article.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

I'm going to ignore your advice and go pro anyway, after I graduate in June.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

I still manage to fit in 20 hours of poker a week at school. I don't think that I want to play much more poker than that. Sure, there are many things that I would rather be doing other than school with the rest of the time, but school isn't bad and I'll have plenty of time for that when I graduate and have all of this money saved up.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Poker is hard but so is corporate America. So is running a business. If poker were easy then it wouldn't be so interesting and we couldn't get the edge that we do. It also wouldn't be as motivating to learn the game better. But yes, poker is hard. At least there's no boss, at least you don't have to play some political game to step on anybody, and at least you don't have to have connections or be part of any family or specific ethnic group to become highly successful.

Indy

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob & become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree with this. However, some small subset of hardheaded dreamers will ignore this advice, and a smaller subset of these people will become tomorrow's successful poker professionals.

I myself couldn't imagine playing poker for a living, but I can relate to pursuing a dream against the advice of almost everybody. I spent the majority of my young adulthood rock and ice climbing all over the country, instead of going to college and pursuing a career. I've since been pursuing a college degree part time (almost done!) while working full time, and it's been more difficult for sure than if I had attended college straight out of school. I still don't regret pursuing my dreams though, and I have lots of great experiences and memories of my younger days hanging it out there.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Sure it can be hard at times but playing poker (mostly online I mean) for a living is great if you are young enough to have time to take a few years off the career "path" that involves university etc.

You can make tons of money, work (or not) whenever you want and do any amount of travelling or moving around since you can play from anywhere.

It does involve some amount of self discipline and money managment that comes more naturally to some then others, but anyone can work on those qualities. The lows can be really low so maybe it's just certain overally emotionally involved people that find playing poker for a living extremely difficult.

I've been on huge downswings before and have talked to many pros who have been in similar situations. You have to step back and realise things arent so bad, maybe you have to learn some hard lessons about constant effort to improve and bankroll managment every once in a while but as long as you do learn from your mistakes this job quickly becomes a lot more stress-free and relaxing, even when the results just arent there.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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at least you don't have to play some political game to step on anybody, and at least you don't have to have connections or be part of any family or specific ethnic group to become highly successful.


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In some ways that is true and its a great thing about poker, that the only discrimantory factor from any "public" game is money, anybody with the money can play. As far as "satalite" poker income goes though (writing artciles, books, poker products, coaching, etc.) poker is just like any other business in that respect.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

IMHO, college is worth the experience even if you never do squat with your degree. Don't drop out of college to go pro if you think you are good enough. Do both. The education and experience, not to mention the girls, are too much to pass-over. Trust me, there is no better place than college for getting laid.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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great article by Ed Miller on the topic



[/ QUOTE ]

If I ever ran out of toilet paper and were in a jam, I'd simply print out an Ed Miller article.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Whatever you guys say... poker is a dream job. I mean, I used to spend all day sitting here behind my computer, playing games, surfing the internet, watching TV and whatever. Now I do exactly the same, only I am thousands of dollars richer.

I'm still in college, but I don't really like it. First of all I don't know if I like what I'm studying right now, and if I will like the job it might get me. Secondly, I can make more money now than I can if I work hard, and pay money for five years and then get a job. That's just insane. I won't quit school just yet, but I'm considering it.

People act like it's the end of the world if something bad happens, or if you're doing something that's not entirely socially accepted. But the point of life is not getting rich, or being socially accepted or getting many friends, or getting your diplomas... the point is to be happy. Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

When you don't really need to worry that much about money and don't have much in the way of responsibilities, there are fewer things that threaten to impinge on your happiness. A sense of security is something that many people find relaxing.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
People act like it's the end of the world if something bad happens, or if you're doing something that's not entirely socially accepted. But the point of life is not getting rich, or being socially accepted or getting many friends, or getting your diplomas... the point is to be happy. Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said "Don't Try"....For God's sake = GO4IT [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Just have a backup plan....That's all

I tried it....I was a "pro" for a year in a "B&M" Casino - Absolutely loved every minute...Now I'm back to work for the "Man".....G/L

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

I really can't see myself doing much other than playing poker professoinally the next 7-10 years. At that point I should have enough passive income to where I can do whatever intrests me at that time. I love this game and imo its not that hard if you are smart about things.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love this game and imo its not that hard if you are smart about things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's true, but not for all players. Good high-stakes players think it's very easy to win at low stakes, while some players couldn't win at low stakes if their lives depended on it. It's like... it's easy IF you put a lot of effort in it, study, focus, have good money management, are intelligent, etc.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Note: this isn't aimed at anyone in specific. Just writing my general thoughts on this topic.

Regardless of whether someone wants to go pro or get a real job, I still wouldn't trade my college experience for anything (I graduated in 2004, I'm one year out). The things I learned, both in the classroom and out, the people I met and lifelong friends I made, the parties, etc. It seriously was the best damn 4 years of my life. If you have absolutely no interest and motivation to work toward a degree right now, I don't think it's awful to take a year or two off from college if you can make a lot of money while the poker boom is still around. I would highly recommend you still participate in some sort part-time job or volunteer organization though, even if it's only a few hours a week. You always want to continue to keep your social network alive. One good reason is if you ever want to change from being a poker pro, you're going to need good references and letters of recommendation. Pretty much everything you apply to in life demands these.

You can go back to college at any age, but if you wait too long, you won't be able to experience the true social aspect of college. If you're starting to get into your late 20s, you're just not going to fit in with the younger college students. Maybe you're not interested in the social aspect of college. That's fine then, to each his own.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

while I am still in college and plan to finish while doing as little as possible, I find it depressing that everyone says those were the best years of my life...What am I going to do for the next 60-70 years? I'm sorry but I really just hate hearing that phrase. You can still have as good of time when you are 40, I am sure of it.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Americans have too much fun in college in general, but I must admit that I miss the old college days myself. Basically, the rest of your life after school is just one long blur of 9-5 living....with an occasionally good poker game thrown in:)

Indy

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

One thing I forgot to mention when I said poker is "hard." Its not that hard in poker to make a living, but its kinda hard to make a super-living. Realistically, anyone who studies hard and commits to the game will make 30K/yr or whatever you need to survive these days. Its a different ? if someone can make over 250K/yr or not. That's where I aim myself but its hard part time to accomplish it.

Indy

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
while I am still in college and plan to finish while doing as little as possible, I find it depressing that everyone says those were the best years of my life...What am I going to do for the next 60-70 years? I'm sorry but I really just hate hearing that phrase. You can still have as good of time when you are 40, I am sure of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there have been studies on just this topic.

When old folks are asked to talk about their memories, they usually talk about things that happened before they were 25.

But they were happiest after 25.

The conclusion: college is (or should be) the most *memorable* four years of your life. It will help you become the happy person you will be later.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

i like this reply, thanks

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

Just don't buy a bunch of [censored] when you get outta college with your first job and you will be ok. Tying yourself down with material obligations will make you miserable in the long run and keep you from being flexible and happy like you were in college.

Indy

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

While It has been dificult at times, it has also been very rewarding. I have learned so many +EV life situations from this game (including discipline, self control, and money management just to name a few.) If you have few responsibilities and have a passion for the game, I highly recommend it.

Re: A Note to \"WannaBe\" Pros
 

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you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others

[/ QUOTE ]

How ironic is this coming from a guy who says that I wasn't cut out for this job??????!!!!